Educate the dimwits about the fact that Jewishness has existed for millennia but Israel has only existed since 1948. And the circumstances why Israel came to exist in the first place....
Educate the dimwits about the fact that Jewishness has existed for millennia but Israel has only existed since 1948. And the circumstances why Israel came to exist in the first place....
Thank you for saying this, David. Why are some members of FAIR supporting Zionism? Even Monica Harris, one of my heroes, is doing that! Aren't we supposed to be against identity politics?
Some people might think I was Jewish because of my surname; I'm not. (My father came from that background, but my mother didn't, and so I'm Gentile). So I have feared some sort of retaliation due to my being thought of as a Jew, which should not happen at all.
Because, in Canada, where I live, anti-Semitic crimes and harassment have been occurring far more than they should, and I can't stand that.
Why do you define yourself as тАЬgentileтАЭ based on Jewish religious ideology? A personтАЩs тАЬJewishnessтАЭ is entirely based on their own adherence to the ideology and religious tribe of Judaism, just like a personтАЩs тАЬChristiannessтАЭ is based on entirely their own adherence to the ideology and religious tribe of Christianity. If you had a Jewish mother, but you renounced Judaism, you wouldnтАЩt be a Jew either.
IтАЩm not a Christian even though both my parents (and their parents etc etc) were raised Christian. Judaism is a religion . Period. It just happens to be one with racialist ideology. Which makes FAIR shilling for Zionism, the apex of that racialism, a huge disgrace and contradiction to their supposed purpose.
And I think crimes of actual antisemitism will continue to occur as long as the ethno-centric war-mongering state of Israel continues to equate Zionism with the Jewish ethnicity and religion.
I didn't say it was *THE* source of antisemitism. I said the existence of an ethno-centric Jewish state that behaves as it does, and acts as an arm of the U.S. Military Industrial Complex, is *A major* source of it in the modern world. As an Italian, the last thing I would ever want to see is an ethno-centric nation-state purporting to be based on "protection" for Italians to be created and then display the behavior of Israel. Linking such a state to being Italian and Roman Catholic would be hazardous to all Italians and Roman Catholics across the planet.
I think Israel would fare much better if it promotes peaceful co-existence between Jews, Palestinians, and anyone else who wants to live there, under a true democratic framework that gives no exceptional treatment to any ethnic group; and which disallows Zionism, Sharia Law, or any other type of ethno-centric or religio-centric ideology to be writ into law.
That is the form of egalitarianism that FAIR is supposed to represent, and it is in no way indicative of "hatred" towards Jews or favoritism towards any ethnic or religious demographic. And it is also strongly against using armed warfare to achieve goals.
Israel exists as a power grab for certain Western nations in the Middle East, including but particularly the United States. Hatred against Jews or any other demographic will only "flourish" if the type of conflicts over resources we see in class divided society continues to exist, which is why socialists oppose class rule. Hatred against Jews, just like hatred against any demographic, have always resulted from conflicts over distribution of limited resources. In the modern, post-Industrial era it's about *artificial scarcity*, meaning completely unnecessary with modern technology.. And both the U.S. and Israeli governments are intent on maintaining this system of private control over this technology.
Jewish people are not the only demographic who has been hated throughout millennia, and even into the present day. Nowadays, in fact, the Palestinians are far worse off than Jewish people in the region they share. This is why an ethno-centric state cannot resolve these issues but only worsen them, because it plays the zero-sum game insisting that for one group to be free of oppression and lack of resources, another must be oppressed and denied access in its place.
This is what has to stop. We need to support equal distribution and access to resources for all groups of people. That includes land, food, water, education, and civil liberties. Zionists do not support this type of equality considering how even in the USA they manipulate elections with the billions of dollars AIPAC controls and have the power to ban criticism of the ideology across social media and at universities.
Resources cannot be equally allocated because resources are finite. And the desire for resources exceeds their supply. There simply isnтАЩt enough San Diego coastal land to satisfy the human desire for it. Human desire can be infinite. Land is not. Marxism could only function in a slave society where human desires are oppressed by an authoritarian force, which is why governments that attempt to implement it faithfully and thoroughly have and will always produce poverty and slavery. That is until we can terraform infinite planets with lots of beach front property with easy access to abundant supply chains. Scarcity isnтАЩt тАЬartificialтАЭ.
I do appreciate your opposition to Zionism though. As people learn more about its history and the pernicious influence it has over American politics, I hope it loses its power. I suspect most Americans donтАЩt have any desire to subsidize a genocidal apartheid state, but feel quite powerless to do anything about it.
This is not true in a post-industrial ers, Jeffery. With modern technology, we can produce an abundance for all. Only n the continued existence of class rule, reliance on money to move resources, and production for profit cause continued wealth disparity between individuals and groups.
Desire need not be irrationally infinite. It nerd only n be enough to provide full comfort and security for all. We have been educated into thinking otherwise by our ruling class for obvious reasons, so that we continue tolerating everything class rule brings - inequality, mass poverty, war, and competition between people that results in every form of bigotry. Identity politics is, in fact, a creature spawned by competition and the resentments that result from it.
That said, thank you for your support against Zionism, a most destructive form of identity politics. I was frankly shocked and disappointed to see that it has a number of adherents in FAIR.
When there is enough beach front property for all, lemme know. Until then, resources are finite. IтАЩm not interested in Marxist тАЬcomfortтАЭ and тАЬsecurityтАЭ; I also want тАЬfreedomтАЭ and тАЬjusticeтАЭ. IтАЩd have neither if the fruit of my labor was taken and distributed by people who believe they know better than me how it ought to be used. No thanks. Albeit that happens already now, with income taxes. тАЬCapitalismтАЭ is an invention by Marxists. Adam Smith, for example, had nothing to say about тАЬcapitalism.тАЭ Our economic system is currently deeply unjust, but itтАЩs not тАЬcapitalism.тАЭ Nor is it operating in a way that has been commonly favored by people who are called тАЬcapitalistsтАЭ, like Smith.
Some level of property inequality will result from a just economic system. People are not equal in our тАЬproductiveтАЭcapacity or interest. Equal property ownership could only result from an unjust economic system тАФ at least in a world without that infinite beach front property. I simply do not believe your vision is congruent with economic reality or human nature. At least my nature.
At this moment IтАЩd perhaps argue that Zionism today is the *most* destructive form of тАЬidentity politicsтАЭ in the U.S., and potentially the world. As for the adherents at FAIR, yah itтАЩs quite disappointing and disturbing to see an organization supposedly against racial tribalism defending a genocide by a pseudo ethnic state. ItтАЩs clear whatever FAIR is motivated by it isnтАЩt what FAIR claims it is. It is remarkable to see the growing popular shift against Zionism though. ItтАЩs becoming more and more just an establishment fringe ideology that has enormous power but less and less democratic support. The more people learn, the more that will happen.
Crimes of antisemitism do not happen in a vacuum. They do not happen because hatred against Jews is somehow "wired into" human nature. The worst thing to do to "eliminate" bigotry against Jews -- or any other ethnic or religious demographic -- is create an ethno-centric nation-state that claims to be a "protection" bulwark for Jewish people that basically behaves the exact same way towards other groups that real anti-semites behaved against Jews. And then claim the actions of that state are taken in the name of all Jews.
All forms of bigotry are based on power discrepancies in society between different demographics, with some blaming others rather than blaming the system of class rule itself. That is the basis -- and curse -- of identity politics. And FAIR was supposed to have been formed to combat identity politics.
The claim that Israel "behaves the exact same way towards other groups that real anti-semites behaved against Jews" is adding to the slanders already appearing on this page. Readily available facts contradict this claim and you can find them if you're willing.
Class doesn't explain everything, particularly not theocratic Islam, and Marxist class analysis failed to illuminate many things to which it was supposed to pertain. Zionism is an attempt to preserve a particular ethno-religious cohort. That does not make it "identity politics" in the sense with which FAIR is concerned. The only contradiction here is the one you created by mislabeling Zionism as such.
Israel is an apartheid state. And is carrying out a genocide. There is nothing slanderous about that. Its fact. International courts have already recognized it as an apartheid state. And its genocide is currently under review. You can find these facts if you are willing.
And the U.S. government is funding its apartheid and genocide.
In July, a committee attached the ICJ issued an advisory opinion which mentioned that "A number of participants have argued that IsraelтАЩs policies and practices in the Occupied Palestinian Territory amount to segregation or apartheid." This was blown up into something it wasn't by parties eager to proclaim Israel a criminal enterprise and their remarks were repeated by the usual dupes.
The charges of genocide brought to the ICJ by South Africa, of all places, are spurious. Thus far they have resulted in the ICJ ordering Israel not to attack Rafah, which Israel ignored, thus rescuing a half-dozen hostages and exposing fifty entrances leading to Hamas terror tunnels positioned in Egypt, who is the biggest recipient of US foreign aid after Israel and Jordan. This throws the already dubious credibility of the ICJ into the dumpster. Like you repeated back at me, the facts are available if you're willing.
What your remarks have to do with the opinions of the author of the original post is not clear, except to demonstrate how motivated anti-Zionists are to stomp on Jews. Gut yontif to you as well - it's the evening of Yom Kippur, as you're no doubt aware.
My remarks have to do with your comment. I was replying to you. And you specifically wrote :
'The claim that Israel "behaves the exact same way towards other groups that real anti-semites behaved against Jews" is adding to the slanders already appearing on this page'
The notion that I'm just "trying to stomp on jews" by directly replying to your comment is the height of tribalistic victim pleading.Fortunately not all jews are zionists. but it has become increasingly clear and obvious many zionists want people to believe that so when people disparage Zionism then those zionists can *slander* critics of Zionism as "anti Semites" or "jew haters" or in your words-"jew stompers".
As for the icj *court* advisory opinion. it can be read and full here:
"224. A number of participants have argued that IsraelтАЩs policies and practices in the Occupied
Palestinian Territory amount to segregation or apartheid, in breach of Article 3 of CERD."
but there is much much more. two other parts make the opinion of the court explicit.
"225. Article 3 of CERD provides as follows: тАЬStates Parties particularly condemn racial
segregation and apartheid and undertake to prevent, prohibit and eradicate all practices of this nature
in territories under their jurisdiction.тАЭ This provision refers to two particularly severe forms of racial
discrimination: racial segregation and apartheid."
"229. The Court observes that IsraelтАЩs legislation and measures impose and serve to maintain a
near-complete separation in the West Bank and East Jerusalem between the settler and Palestinian
communities. For this reason, the Court considers that IsraelтАЩs legislation and measures constitute a
breach of Article 3 of CERD."
it seems like to me that zionists are trying to minimize and distort the court's opinion.
And what you said about Egypt and hamas is irrelevant with regard to whether israel is carrying out a genocide. I dislike hamas and I don't think the u.s. government should be giving any money to Egypt. and I don't think likud should be carrying out a genocide. and the u.s. government should not be funding that either. israel is the number one recipient of us aid while it should be receiving nothing. insofar as israel is receiving the most aid and carrying out a genocide it should be no surprise to anyone that many americans have disparaging things to say about the apartheid state of israel. many of us do not like our tax money stolen to carry out atrocities.
As I already explained, the ICJ is a clown show with a history of maliciously directing Israel to injure itself. As for the antisemitism, there's not another explanation for why Julia here can't say that deplatforming supporters of Israel is wrong without a bunch of ninnies showing up in her comments to blither about "apartheid" and "genocide." China has as many Muslim prisoners as Israel has enfranchised Muslim citizens - why do they not complain of Chinese apartheid? Egypt is converting US aid into material support for Hamas - why are they not complaining about the theft of their taxes for the funding of Hamas's genocide (and unlike Israel's campaign, that actually is genocide)? And the answer is obvious - the kind of people who used to excoriate the Jews in their nations are now excoriating Jews in their own nation.
Educate the dimwits about the fact that Jewishness has existed for millennia but Israel has only existed since 1948. And the circumstances why Israel came to exist in the first place....
Thank you for saying this, David. Why are some members of FAIR supporting Zionism? Even Monica Harris, one of my heroes, is doing that! Aren't we supposed to be against identity politics?
Some people might think I was Jewish because of my surname; I'm not. (My father came from that background, but my mother didn't, and so I'm Gentile). So I have feared some sort of retaliation due to my being thought of as a Jew, which should not happen at all.
Because, in Canada, where I live, anti-Semitic crimes and harassment have been occurring far more than they should, and I can't stand that.
Why do you define yourself as тАЬgentileтАЭ based on Jewish religious ideology? A personтАЩs тАЬJewishnessтАЭ is entirely based on their own adherence to the ideology and religious tribe of Judaism, just like a personтАЩs тАЬChristiannessтАЭ is based on entirely their own adherence to the ideology and religious tribe of Christianity. If you had a Jewish mother, but you renounced Judaism, you wouldnтАЩt be a Jew either.
IтАЩm not a Christian even though both my parents (and their parents etc etc) were raised Christian. Judaism is a religion . Period. It just happens to be one with racialist ideology. Which makes FAIR shilling for Zionism, the apex of that racialism, a huge disgrace and contradiction to their supposed purpose.
And I think crimes of actual antisemitism will continue to occur as long as the ethno-centric war-mongering state of Israel continues to equate Zionism with the Jewish ethnicity and religion.
That you think Israel is the source of antisemitism tells me all I need to know about your understanding of the matters at hand.
I didn't say it was *THE* source of antisemitism. I said the existence of an ethno-centric Jewish state that behaves as it does, and acts as an arm of the U.S. Military Industrial Complex, is *A major* source of it in the modern world. As an Italian, the last thing I would ever want to see is an ethno-centric nation-state purporting to be based on "protection" for Italians to be created and then display the behavior of Israel. Linking such a state to being Italian and Roman Catholic would be hazardous to all Italians and Roman Catholics across the planet.
I think Israel would fare much better if it promotes peaceful co-existence between Jews, Palestinians, and anyone else who wants to live there, under a true democratic framework that gives no exceptional treatment to any ethnic group; and which disallows Zionism, Sharia Law, or any other type of ethno-centric or religio-centric ideology to be writ into law.
That is the form of egalitarianism that FAIR is supposed to represent, and it is in no way indicative of "hatred" towards Jews or favoritism towards any ethnic or religious demographic. And it is also strongly against using armed warfare to achieve goals.
Wrong. It would flourish as it has for millennia with or without Israel. Which is exactly why Israel exists.
Israel exists as a power grab for certain Western nations in the Middle East, including but particularly the United States. Hatred against Jews or any other demographic will only "flourish" if the type of conflicts over resources we see in class divided society continues to exist, which is why socialists oppose class rule. Hatred against Jews, just like hatred against any demographic, have always resulted from conflicts over distribution of limited resources. In the modern, post-Industrial era it's about *artificial scarcity*, meaning completely unnecessary with modern technology.. And both the U.S. and Israeli governments are intent on maintaining this system of private control over this technology.
Jewish people are not the only demographic who has been hated throughout millennia, and even into the present day. Nowadays, in fact, the Palestinians are far worse off than Jewish people in the region they share. This is why an ethno-centric state cannot resolve these issues but only worsen them, because it plays the zero-sum game insisting that for one group to be free of oppression and lack of resources, another must be oppressed and denied access in its place.
This is what has to stop. We need to support equal distribution and access to resources for all groups of people. That includes land, food, water, education, and civil liberties. Zionists do not support this type of equality considering how even in the USA they manipulate elections with the billions of dollars AIPAC controls and have the power to ban criticism of the ideology across social media and at universities.
Resources cannot be equally allocated because resources are finite. And the desire for resources exceeds their supply. There simply isnтАЩt enough San Diego coastal land to satisfy the human desire for it. Human desire can be infinite. Land is not. Marxism could only function in a slave society where human desires are oppressed by an authoritarian force, which is why governments that attempt to implement it faithfully and thoroughly have and will always produce poverty and slavery. That is until we can terraform infinite planets with lots of beach front property with easy access to abundant supply chains. Scarcity isnтАЩt тАЬartificialтАЭ.
I do appreciate your opposition to Zionism though. As people learn more about its history and the pernicious influence it has over American politics, I hope it loses its power. I suspect most Americans donтАЩt have any desire to subsidize a genocidal apartheid state, but feel quite powerless to do anything about it.
This is not true in a post-industrial ers, Jeffery. With modern technology, we can produce an abundance for all. Only n the continued existence of class rule, reliance on money to move resources, and production for profit cause continued wealth disparity between individuals and groups.
Desire need not be irrationally infinite. It nerd only n be enough to provide full comfort and security for all. We have been educated into thinking otherwise by our ruling class for obvious reasons, so that we continue tolerating everything class rule brings - inequality, mass poverty, war, and competition between people that results in every form of bigotry. Identity politics is, in fact, a creature spawned by competition and the resentments that result from it.
That said, thank you for your support against Zionism, a most destructive form of identity politics. I was frankly shocked and disappointed to see that it has a number of adherents in FAIR.
When there is enough beach front property for all, lemme know. Until then, resources are finite. IтАЩm not interested in Marxist тАЬcomfortтАЭ and тАЬsecurityтАЭ; I also want тАЬfreedomтАЭ and тАЬjusticeтАЭ. IтАЩd have neither if the fruit of my labor was taken and distributed by people who believe they know better than me how it ought to be used. No thanks. Albeit that happens already now, with income taxes. тАЬCapitalismтАЭ is an invention by Marxists. Adam Smith, for example, had nothing to say about тАЬcapitalism.тАЭ Our economic system is currently deeply unjust, but itтАЩs not тАЬcapitalism.тАЭ Nor is it operating in a way that has been commonly favored by people who are called тАЬcapitalistsтАЭ, like Smith.
Some level of property inequality will result from a just economic system. People are not equal in our тАЬproductiveтАЭcapacity or interest. Equal property ownership could only result from an unjust economic system тАФ at least in a world without that infinite beach front property. I simply do not believe your vision is congruent with economic reality or human nature. At least my nature.
At this moment IтАЩd perhaps argue that Zionism today is the *most* destructive form of тАЬidentity politicsтАЭ in the U.S., and potentially the world. As for the adherents at FAIR, yah itтАЩs quite disappointing and disturbing to see an organization supposedly against racial tribalism defending a genocide by a pseudo ethnic state. ItтАЩs clear whatever FAIR is motivated by it isnтАЩt what FAIR claims it is. It is remarkable to see the growing popular shift against Zionism though. ItтАЩs becoming more and more just an establishment fringe ideology that has enormous power but less and less democratic support. The more people learn, the more that will happen.
"Crimes of actual antisemitism" far predated the creation of Israel and will persist after whatever reforms Israel might make to your liking.
Crimes of antisemitism do not happen in a vacuum. They do not happen because hatred against Jews is somehow "wired into" human nature. The worst thing to do to "eliminate" bigotry against Jews -- or any other ethnic or religious demographic -- is create an ethno-centric nation-state that claims to be a "protection" bulwark for Jewish people that basically behaves the exact same way towards other groups that real anti-semites behaved against Jews. And then claim the actions of that state are taken in the name of all Jews.
All forms of bigotry are based on power discrepancies in society between different demographics, with some blaming others rather than blaming the system of class rule itself. That is the basis -- and curse -- of identity politics. And FAIR was supposed to have been formed to combat identity politics.
The claim that Israel "behaves the exact same way towards other groups that real anti-semites behaved against Jews" is adding to the slanders already appearing on this page. Readily available facts contradict this claim and you can find them if you're willing.
Class doesn't explain everything, particularly not theocratic Islam, and Marxist class analysis failed to illuminate many things to which it was supposed to pertain. Zionism is an attempt to preserve a particular ethno-religious cohort. That does not make it "identity politics" in the sense with which FAIR is concerned. The only contradiction here is the one you created by mislabeling Zionism as such.
Israel is an apartheid state. And is carrying out a genocide. There is nothing slanderous about that. Its fact. International courts have already recognized it as an apartheid state. And its genocide is currently under review. You can find these facts if you are willing.
And the U.S. government is funding its apartheid and genocide.
In July, a committee attached the ICJ issued an advisory opinion which mentioned that "A number of participants have argued that IsraelтАЩs policies and practices in the Occupied Palestinian Territory amount to segregation or apartheid." This was blown up into something it wasn't by parties eager to proclaim Israel a criminal enterprise and their remarks were repeated by the usual dupes.
The charges of genocide brought to the ICJ by South Africa, of all places, are spurious. Thus far they have resulted in the ICJ ordering Israel not to attack Rafah, which Israel ignored, thus rescuing a half-dozen hostages and exposing fifty entrances leading to Hamas terror tunnels positioned in Egypt, who is the biggest recipient of US foreign aid after Israel and Jordan. This throws the already dubious credibility of the ICJ into the dumpster. Like you repeated back at me, the facts are available if you're willing.
What your remarks have to do with the opinions of the author of the original post is not clear, except to demonstrate how motivated anti-Zionists are to stomp on Jews. Gut yontif to you as well - it's the evening of Yom Kippur, as you're no doubt aware.
My remarks have to do with your comment. I was replying to you. And you specifically wrote :
'The claim that Israel "behaves the exact same way towards other groups that real anti-semites behaved against Jews" is adding to the slanders already appearing on this page'
The notion that I'm just "trying to stomp on jews" by directly replying to your comment is the height of tribalistic victim pleading.Fortunately not all jews are zionists. but it has become increasingly clear and obvious many zionists want people to believe that so when people disparage Zionism then those zionists can *slander* critics of Zionism as "anti Semites" or "jew haters" or in your words-"jew stompers".
As for the icj *court* advisory opinion. it can be read and full here:
https://www.icj-cij.org/sites/default/files/case-related/186/186-20240719-adv-01-00-en.pdf
you are quoting part of two twenty four:
"224. A number of participants have argued that IsraelтАЩs policies and practices in the Occupied
Palestinian Territory amount to segregation or apartheid, in breach of Article 3 of CERD."
but there is much much more. two other parts make the opinion of the court explicit.
"225. Article 3 of CERD provides as follows: тАЬStates Parties particularly condemn racial
segregation and apartheid and undertake to prevent, prohibit and eradicate all practices of this nature
in territories under their jurisdiction.тАЭ This provision refers to two particularly severe forms of racial
discrimination: racial segregation and apartheid."
"229. The Court observes that IsraelтАЩs legislation and measures impose and serve to maintain a
near-complete separation in the West Bank and East Jerusalem between the settler and Palestinian
communities. For this reason, the Court considers that IsraelтАЩs legislation and measures constitute a
breach of Article 3 of CERD."
it seems like to me that zionists are trying to minimize and distort the court's opinion.
And what you said about Egypt and hamas is irrelevant with regard to whether israel is carrying out a genocide. I dislike hamas and I don't think the u.s. government should be giving any money to Egypt. and I don't think likud should be carrying out a genocide. and the u.s. government should not be funding that either. israel is the number one recipient of us aid while it should be receiving nothing. insofar as israel is receiving the most aid and carrying out a genocide it should be no surprise to anyone that many americans have disparaging things to say about the apartheid state of israel. many of us do not like our tax money stolen to carry out atrocities.
As I already explained, the ICJ is a clown show with a history of maliciously directing Israel to injure itself. As for the antisemitism, there's not another explanation for why Julia here can't say that deplatforming supporters of Israel is wrong without a bunch of ninnies showing up in her comments to blither about "apartheid" and "genocide." China has as many Muslim prisoners as Israel has enfranchised Muslim citizens - why do they not complain of Chinese apartheid? Egypt is converting US aid into material support for Hamas - why are they not complaining about the theft of their taxes for the funding of Hamas's genocide (and unlike Israel's campaign, that actually is genocide)? And the answer is obvious - the kind of people who used to excoriate the Jews in their nations are now excoriating Jews in their own nation.