Some people might think I was Jewish because of my surname; I'm not. (My father came from that background, but my mother didn't, and so I'm Gentile). So I have feared some sort of retaliation due to my being thought of as a Jew, which should not happen at all.
Because, in Canada, where I live, anti-Semitic crimes and harassment have been occurring far more than they should, and I can't stand that.
Some people might think I was Jewish because of my surname; I'm not. (My father came from that background, but my mother didn't, and so I'm Gentile). So I have feared some sort of retaliation due to my being thought of as a Jew, which should not happen at all.
Because, in Canada, where I live, anti-Semitic crimes and harassment have been occurring far more than they should, and I can't stand that.
Why do you define yourself as “gentile” based on Jewish religious ideology? A person’s “Jewishness” is entirely based on their own adherence to the ideology and religious tribe of Judaism, just like a person’s “Christianness” is based on entirely their own adherence to the ideology and religious tribe of Christianity. If you had a Jewish mother, but you renounced Judaism, you wouldn’t be a Jew either.
I’m not a Christian even though both my parents (and their parents etc etc) were raised Christian. Judaism is a religion . Period. It just happens to be one with racialist ideology. Which makes FAIR shilling for Zionism, the apex of that racialism, a huge disgrace and contradiction to their supposed purpose.
And I think crimes of actual antisemitism will continue to occur as long as the ethno-centric war-mongering state of Israel continues to equate Zionism with the Jewish ethnicity and religion.
I didn't say it was *THE* source of antisemitism. I said the existence of an ethno-centric Jewish state that behaves as it does, and acts as an arm of the U.S. Military Industrial Complex, is *A major* source of it in the modern world. As an Italian, the last thing I would ever want to see is an ethno-centric nation-state purporting to be based on "protection" for Italians to be created and then display the behavior of Israel. Linking such a state to being Italian and Roman Catholic would be hazardous to all Italians and Roman Catholics across the planet.
I think Israel would fare much better if it promotes peaceful co-existence between Jews, Palestinians, and anyone else who wants to live there, under a true democratic framework that gives no exceptional treatment to any ethnic group; and which disallows Zionism, Sharia Law, or any other type of ethno-centric or religio-centric ideology to be writ into law.
That is the form of egalitarianism that FAIR is supposed to represent, and it is in no way indicative of "hatred" towards Jews or favoritism towards any ethnic or religious demographic. And it is also strongly against using armed warfare to achieve goals.
Israel exists as a power grab for certain Western nations in the Middle East, including but particularly the United States. Hatred against Jews or any other demographic will only "flourish" if the type of conflicts over resources we see in class divided society continues to exist, which is why socialists oppose class rule. Hatred against Jews, just like hatred against any demographic, have always resulted from conflicts over distribution of limited resources. In the modern, post-Industrial era it's about *artificial scarcity*, meaning completely unnecessary with modern technology.. And both the U.S. and Israeli governments are intent on maintaining this system of private control over this technology.
Jewish people are not the only demographic who has been hated throughout millennia, and even into the present day. Nowadays, in fact, the Palestinians are far worse off than Jewish people in the region they share. This is why an ethno-centric state cannot resolve these issues but only worsen them, because it plays the zero-sum game insisting that for one group to be free of oppression and lack of resources, another must be oppressed and denied access in its place.
This is what has to stop. We need to support equal distribution and access to resources for all groups of people. That includes land, food, water, education, and civil liberties. Zionists do not support this type of equality considering how even in the USA they manipulate elections with the billions of dollars AIPAC controls and have the power to ban criticism of the ideology across social media and at universities.
Resources cannot be equally allocated because resources are finite. And the desire for resources exceeds their supply. There simply isn’t enough San Diego coastal land to satisfy the human desire for it. Human desire can be infinite. Land is not. Marxism could only function in a slave society where human desires are oppressed by an authoritarian force, which is why governments that attempt to implement it faithfully and thoroughly have and will always produce poverty and slavery. That is until we can terraform infinite planets with lots of beach front property with easy access to abundant supply chains. Scarcity isn’t “artificial”.
I do appreciate your opposition to Zionism though. As people learn more about its history and the pernicious influence it has over American politics, I hope it loses its power. I suspect most Americans don’t have any desire to subsidize a genocidal apartheid state, but feel quite powerless to do anything about it.
This is not true in a post-industrial ers, Jeffery. With modern technology, we can produce an abundance for all. Only n the continued existence of class rule, reliance on money to move resources, and production for profit cause continued wealth disparity between individuals and groups.
Desire need not be irrationally infinite. It nerd only n be enough to provide full comfort and security for all. We have been educated into thinking otherwise by our ruling class for obvious reasons, so that we continue tolerating everything class rule brings - inequality, mass poverty, war, and competition between people that results in every form of bigotry. Identity politics is, in fact, a creature spawned by competition and the resentments that result from it.
That said, thank you for your support against Zionism, a most destructive form of identity politics. I was frankly shocked and disappointed to see that it has a number of adherents in FAIR.
When there is enough beach front property for all, lemme know. Until then, resources are finite. I’m not interested in Marxist “comfort” and “security”; I also want “freedom” and “justice”. I’d have neither if the fruit of my labor was taken and distributed by people who believe they know better than me how it ought to be used. No thanks. Albeit that happens already now, with income taxes. “Capitalism” is an invention by Marxists. Adam Smith, for example, had nothing to say about “capitalism.” Our economic system is currently deeply unjust, but it’s not “capitalism.” Nor is it operating in a way that has been commonly favored by people who are called “capitalists”, like Smith.
Some level of property inequality will result from a just economic system. People are not equal in our “productive”capacity or interest. Equal property ownership could only result from an unjust economic system — at least in a world without that infinite beach front property. I simply do not believe your vision is congruent with economic reality or human nature. At least my nature.
At this moment I’d perhaps argue that Zionism today is the *most* destructive form of “identity politics” in the U.S., and potentially the world. As for the adherents at FAIR, yah it’s quite disappointing and disturbing to see an organization supposedly against racial tribalism defending a genocide by a pseudo ethnic state. It’s clear whatever FAIR is motivated by it isn’t what FAIR claims it is. It is remarkable to see the growing popular shift against Zionism though. It’s becoming more and more just an establishment fringe ideology that has enormous power but less and less democratic support. The more people learn, the more that will happen.
Not everyone has to own specifically beach front property to have a good home, and not everyone would wants permanent home on the beach. Temporary, seasonal residences could be shared by many.
The fruit of your labor would not be distributed by bureaucrats. You would decide where you wanted to live permanently. Freedom and security come from being secure and having material access to the full fruit of your labor. Those with more than others under class rule invariably call the shots name have more freedom and rights. Such would not be the case if workers owned productive property communal and shared in that abundance.
Human nature is adaptable. We develop behavior and desires based on the economic rules under which we are compelled to operate in. That includes your nature, and mine.
Many supporters of capitalism will say that the failure of the American iteration of it is because it's "not really capitalism." If it requires money to run; if products are commodities to be sold at a profit; if industries are owned & run by a few, it's a variation of capitalism. That is not a classless, stateless, and moneyless economy envisaged by Marx and Engels.
I do, of course, fully agree with your last paragraph. It's good to be unified with you on that, because I most certainly didn't sign up with FAIR to promote Zionism. At least this happened early in its existence as a warning sign to its members. I too find it refreshing to see more people standing up to this destructive form of identity politics. All identity politics has big money and a lot of emotion supporting it, but now that Israel has gone too far, the tide is turning.
Honestly the classless stateless and moneyless economy envisaged by Marx and engels is incoherent to me. it is like a square circle. but is wrapped in utopian optimism. I think some of the things they thought about the value of labor for example are fundamentally erroneous. value is largely subjective. profit is not simply the exploitation of labor. profit among other things can be reward for risk. I don't particularly care to go into the details of my criticism of marxism here. you're welcome to message me and we can discuss it if you want though.
Crimes of antisemitism do not happen in a vacuum. They do not happen because hatred against Jews is somehow "wired into" human nature. The worst thing to do to "eliminate" bigotry against Jews -- or any other ethnic or religious demographic -- is create an ethno-centric nation-state that claims to be a "protection" bulwark for Jewish people that basically behaves the exact same way towards other groups that real anti-semites behaved against Jews. And then claim the actions of that state are taken in the name of all Jews.
All forms of bigotry are based on power discrepancies in society between different demographics, with some blaming others rather than blaming the system of class rule itself. That is the basis -- and curse -- of identity politics. And FAIR was supposed to have been formed to combat identity politics.
The claim that Israel "behaves the exact same way towards other groups that real anti-semites behaved against Jews" is adding to the slanders already appearing on this page. Readily available facts contradict this claim and you can find them if you're willing.
Class doesn't explain everything, particularly not theocratic Islam, and Marxist class analysis failed to illuminate many things to which it was supposed to pertain. Zionism is an attempt to preserve a particular ethno-religious cohort. That does not make it "identity politics" in the sense with which FAIR is concerned. The only contradiction here is the one you created by mislabeling Zionism as such.
Israel is an apartheid state. And is carrying out a genocide. There is nothing slanderous about that. Its fact. International courts have already recognized it as an apartheid state. And its genocide is currently under review. You can find these facts if you are willing.
And the U.S. government is funding its apartheid and genocide.
In July, a committee attached the ICJ issued an advisory opinion which mentioned that "A number of participants have argued that Israel’s policies and practices in the Occupied Palestinian Territory amount to segregation or apartheid." This was blown up into something it wasn't by parties eager to proclaim Israel a criminal enterprise and their remarks were repeated by the usual dupes.
The charges of genocide brought to the ICJ by South Africa, of all places, are spurious. Thus far they have resulted in the ICJ ordering Israel not to attack Rafah, which Israel ignored, thus rescuing a half-dozen hostages and exposing fifty entrances leading to Hamas terror tunnels positioned in Egypt, who is the biggest recipient of US foreign aid after Israel and Jordan. This throws the already dubious credibility of the ICJ into the dumpster. Like you repeated back at me, the facts are available if you're willing.
What your remarks have to do with the opinions of the author of the original post is not clear, except to demonstrate how motivated anti-Zionists are to stomp on Jews. Gut yontif to you as well - it's the evening of Yom Kippur, as you're no doubt aware.
My remarks have to do with your comment. I was replying to you. And you specifically wrote :
'The claim that Israel "behaves the exact same way towards other groups that real anti-semites behaved against Jews" is adding to the slanders already appearing on this page'
The notion that I'm just "trying to stomp on jews" by directly replying to your comment is the height of tribalistic victim pleading.Fortunately not all jews are zionists. but it has become increasingly clear and obvious many zionists want people to believe that so when people disparage Zionism then those zionists can *slander* critics of Zionism as "anti Semites" or "jew haters" or in your words-"jew stompers".
As for the icj *court* advisory opinion. it can be read and full here:
"224. A number of participants have argued that Israel’s policies and practices in the Occupied
Palestinian Territory amount to segregation or apartheid, in breach of Article 3 of CERD."
but there is much much more. two other parts make the opinion of the court explicit.
"225. Article 3 of CERD provides as follows: “States Parties particularly condemn racial
segregation and apartheid and undertake to prevent, prohibit and eradicate all practices of this nature
in territories under their jurisdiction.” This provision refers to two particularly severe forms of racial
discrimination: racial segregation and apartheid."
"229. The Court observes that Israel’s legislation and measures impose and serve to maintain a
near-complete separation in the West Bank and East Jerusalem between the settler and Palestinian
communities. For this reason, the Court considers that Israel’s legislation and measures constitute a
breach of Article 3 of CERD."
it seems like to me that zionists are trying to minimize and distort the court's opinion.
And what you said about Egypt and hamas is irrelevant with regard to whether israel is carrying out a genocide. I dislike hamas and I don't think the u.s. government should be giving any money to Egypt. and I don't think likud should be carrying out a genocide. and the u.s. government should not be funding that either. israel is the number one recipient of us aid while it should be receiving nothing. insofar as israel is receiving the most aid and carrying out a genocide it should be no surprise to anyone that many americans have disparaging things to say about the apartheid state of israel. many of us do not like our tax money stolen to carry out atrocities.
As I already explained, the ICJ is a clown show with a history of maliciously directing Israel to injure itself. As for the antisemitism, there's not another explanation for why Julia here can't say that deplatforming supporters of Israel is wrong without a bunch of ninnies showing up in her comments to blither about "apartheid" and "genocide." China has as many Muslim prisoners as Israel has enfranchised Muslim citizens - why do they not complain of Chinese apartheid? Egypt is converting US aid into material support for Hamas - why are they not complaining about the theft of their taxes for the funding of Hamas's genocide (and unlike Israel's campaign, that actually is genocide)? And the answer is obvious - the kind of people who used to excoriate the Jews in their nations are now excoriating Jews in their own nation.
There is very rarely an explanation other than “anti-semitism” by Zionists for any disparagement of the Israeli state policy or American foreign policy related to Israel. Zionists tend to have a hard time understanding why anyone would be opposed to funding Israeli state injustices unless they have a murderous racial hatred of Jews, because I guess, to the ears of Zionists, people who dislike injustice, if it’s conducted by Zionists, can only be racists.
Your argument has shifted. First you simply quoted an incomplete statement from the icj and said people were blowing it out of proportion, now you are saying that the icj is just a clown show. You should have just started with that and not even bothered to quote anything from a document you probably never looked at.
Israel is a relatively small, wealthy state that receives a substantially disproportionate amount of foreign aid from the United States — the most out of any country since its inception. And that foreign aid is given almost entirely unconditionally and isn’t tracked in any coherent way. The aid is used to carry out war crimes and other atrocities for the sake of defending a state’s apartheid regime that was established through terrorism and ethnic cleansing around 75 years ago. Some of the people who were victims of the ethnic cleansing are still alive. And the regime is now carrying out a genocide against those people, systematically starving the population for actions taken by an organization(Hamas) that the state of Israel helped cultivate itself and knew of its plans before they were executed.
The lobbying arm of that state (Israel) has massive influence over Congress such that the majority are now trying to legally equate criticizing the foundational ideology of that state with racism. Its domestic lobby agents openly boast about how much money they spend and give to politicians and scheme to avoid being identified legally as foreign agents.
There is no other country that has a relationship to the U.S. that fits that description. And therefore there is no reason to expect people to react to another state in a like manner. Bringing up China is completely ridiculous as the U.S. government has an open adversarial relationship with China. It routinely condemns the policies of China. It’s currently attempting to ban social media apps developed by Chinese companies largely because it doesn’t like what people are saying about Israel on it. The U.S. doesn’t give foreign aid (tax money)to China like Israel. Why would people be spending the equivalent amount of energy on it? Your question is absolutely ridiculous. Israel acquires the most foreign aid so Israel should receive the greatest scrutiny. Calling that outlook anti Semitism is just slanderous Zionist propaganda. Everyone has the right to scrutinize where their tax dollars are being sent.
Egypt is a country that is funded primarily to try to control its relationship to Israel’s interests, even though it’s not always entirely successful. The foreign aid to Egypt may as well be counted toward the foreign aid to Israel because if it wasn’t for Israel, Egypt would be getting a lot less or nothing. I don’t like any money going to Egypt either. So I don’t know why you are bringing them up. You are talking to me, not people who support that funding. What does it have to do with *my* criticism? You seem to have accused me of “stomping on Jews” and suggested I am anti semitic substantially on the basis of what other people may think or do.
Hamas is an organization that was cultivated by the Israeli government precisely because Hamas doesn’t want a two state solution; without Israel’s complicity Hamas would never had grown into the creature it is. I don’t like Hamas though, so bringing up the badness of Hamas is irrelevant, especially when they only exist because the state of Israel found them useful for its plans to acquire “greater Israel”. The U.S. shouldn’t be funding Israel, Egypt, Hamas, China, Saudi Arabia, Ukraine…i imagine any country you bring up.
The idea that I express anti semitism, when I don’t even believe Jews are a race, is such an outlandish accusation that anyone who would think or suggest that has to be, ignorant, brainwashed or malicious. Christian or muslim Gazans are no less likely to have "semitic" ancestry than Israeli jews. Plausibly even more likely. Yet here I am advocating that the us government does not fund the genocide of those semitic people. To the chagrin of many zionists, it's a fact that not all jews have semitic ancestry nor are all people with semitic ancestry are Jews. Jews are a religious tribe. It is a choice to be a jew just like it's a choice to be a christian or Scientologist. And it's a choice to be a zionist jew specifically just like it's a choice to be a lutheran christian.
Julia isn’t just complaining about deplatforming, she is expressing political opinions about the apartheid state of Israel. I actually agree that the Zionist shouldn’t have been deplatformed. That’s not the only thing she discussed though. She also for example suggested that Jews are a race, which is a religious myth that FAIR should not be platforming without any piece that points out why that is erroneous. FAIR is violating its mission by privileging the voices of Zionism, a pseudo ethnic religious ideology at the foundation of an apartheid state currently carrying out a genocide and trying to ethnically cleanse territory.
That’s plenty good reason for anyone to comment about genocide and apartheid here.
Hamas has not committed a genocide even though it has committed atrocities; it does not have the means to currently carry out a genocide. Once Hamas starts to systematically starve the Israeli population then you can have compelling reason to accuse them of carrying out a genocide. Unfortunately, even at that point the Israeli government would still hold substantial responsibility since it has cultivated Hamas. Though, I have no problem denouncing Hamas regardless of whether it is carrying out a genocide. But Likud has no right to starve all Gazan children for what Hamas did a year ago anymore than Hamas has the right to starve all Israeli children for anything the Israeli state has done over the past 75 years.
How about you ask FAIR to platform you and I to discuss Zionism and anti Zionism? I think it would be fruitful. It’s a bit silly for Julia to come to a place that doesn’t platform anti Zionists complaining about how some other place doesn’t platform Zionists.
FAIR was already aware of the irrationality of the anti-Zionist position. But it's difficult to convey what a bunch of boilerplate-spewing monomaniacs they are, so thank you for the demonstration.
Israel is not practicing apartheid and accusing it of genocide is racist.
Some people might think I was Jewish because of my surname; I'm not. (My father came from that background, but my mother didn't, and so I'm Gentile). So I have feared some sort of retaliation due to my being thought of as a Jew, which should not happen at all.
Because, in Canada, where I live, anti-Semitic crimes and harassment have been occurring far more than they should, and I can't stand that.
Why do you define yourself as “gentile” based on Jewish religious ideology? A person’s “Jewishness” is entirely based on their own adherence to the ideology and religious tribe of Judaism, just like a person’s “Christianness” is based on entirely their own adherence to the ideology and religious tribe of Christianity. If you had a Jewish mother, but you renounced Judaism, you wouldn’t be a Jew either.
I’m not a Christian even though both my parents (and their parents etc etc) were raised Christian. Judaism is a religion . Period. It just happens to be one with racialist ideology. Which makes FAIR shilling for Zionism, the apex of that racialism, a huge disgrace and contradiction to their supposed purpose.
And I think crimes of actual antisemitism will continue to occur as long as the ethno-centric war-mongering state of Israel continues to equate Zionism with the Jewish ethnicity and religion.
That you think Israel is the source of antisemitism tells me all I need to know about your understanding of the matters at hand.
I didn't say it was *THE* source of antisemitism. I said the existence of an ethno-centric Jewish state that behaves as it does, and acts as an arm of the U.S. Military Industrial Complex, is *A major* source of it in the modern world. As an Italian, the last thing I would ever want to see is an ethno-centric nation-state purporting to be based on "protection" for Italians to be created and then display the behavior of Israel. Linking such a state to being Italian and Roman Catholic would be hazardous to all Italians and Roman Catholics across the planet.
I think Israel would fare much better if it promotes peaceful co-existence between Jews, Palestinians, and anyone else who wants to live there, under a true democratic framework that gives no exceptional treatment to any ethnic group; and which disallows Zionism, Sharia Law, or any other type of ethno-centric or religio-centric ideology to be writ into law.
That is the form of egalitarianism that FAIR is supposed to represent, and it is in no way indicative of "hatred" towards Jews or favoritism towards any ethnic or religious demographic. And it is also strongly against using armed warfare to achieve goals.
Wrong. It would flourish as it has for millennia with or without Israel. Which is exactly why Israel exists.
Israel exists as a power grab for certain Western nations in the Middle East, including but particularly the United States. Hatred against Jews or any other demographic will only "flourish" if the type of conflicts over resources we see in class divided society continues to exist, which is why socialists oppose class rule. Hatred against Jews, just like hatred against any demographic, have always resulted from conflicts over distribution of limited resources. In the modern, post-Industrial era it's about *artificial scarcity*, meaning completely unnecessary with modern technology.. And both the U.S. and Israeli governments are intent on maintaining this system of private control over this technology.
Jewish people are not the only demographic who has been hated throughout millennia, and even into the present day. Nowadays, in fact, the Palestinians are far worse off than Jewish people in the region they share. This is why an ethno-centric state cannot resolve these issues but only worsen them, because it plays the zero-sum game insisting that for one group to be free of oppression and lack of resources, another must be oppressed and denied access in its place.
This is what has to stop. We need to support equal distribution and access to resources for all groups of people. That includes land, food, water, education, and civil liberties. Zionists do not support this type of equality considering how even in the USA they manipulate elections with the billions of dollars AIPAC controls and have the power to ban criticism of the ideology across social media and at universities.
Resources cannot be equally allocated because resources are finite. And the desire for resources exceeds their supply. There simply isn’t enough San Diego coastal land to satisfy the human desire for it. Human desire can be infinite. Land is not. Marxism could only function in a slave society where human desires are oppressed by an authoritarian force, which is why governments that attempt to implement it faithfully and thoroughly have and will always produce poverty and slavery. That is until we can terraform infinite planets with lots of beach front property with easy access to abundant supply chains. Scarcity isn’t “artificial”.
I do appreciate your opposition to Zionism though. As people learn more about its history and the pernicious influence it has over American politics, I hope it loses its power. I suspect most Americans don’t have any desire to subsidize a genocidal apartheid state, but feel quite powerless to do anything about it.
This is not true in a post-industrial ers, Jeffery. With modern technology, we can produce an abundance for all. Only n the continued existence of class rule, reliance on money to move resources, and production for profit cause continued wealth disparity between individuals and groups.
Desire need not be irrationally infinite. It nerd only n be enough to provide full comfort and security for all. We have been educated into thinking otherwise by our ruling class for obvious reasons, so that we continue tolerating everything class rule brings - inequality, mass poverty, war, and competition between people that results in every form of bigotry. Identity politics is, in fact, a creature spawned by competition and the resentments that result from it.
That said, thank you for your support against Zionism, a most destructive form of identity politics. I was frankly shocked and disappointed to see that it has a number of adherents in FAIR.
When there is enough beach front property for all, lemme know. Until then, resources are finite. I’m not interested in Marxist “comfort” and “security”; I also want “freedom” and “justice”. I’d have neither if the fruit of my labor was taken and distributed by people who believe they know better than me how it ought to be used. No thanks. Albeit that happens already now, with income taxes. “Capitalism” is an invention by Marxists. Adam Smith, for example, had nothing to say about “capitalism.” Our economic system is currently deeply unjust, but it’s not “capitalism.” Nor is it operating in a way that has been commonly favored by people who are called “capitalists”, like Smith.
Some level of property inequality will result from a just economic system. People are not equal in our “productive”capacity or interest. Equal property ownership could only result from an unjust economic system — at least in a world without that infinite beach front property. I simply do not believe your vision is congruent with economic reality or human nature. At least my nature.
At this moment I’d perhaps argue that Zionism today is the *most* destructive form of “identity politics” in the U.S., and potentially the world. As for the adherents at FAIR, yah it’s quite disappointing and disturbing to see an organization supposedly against racial tribalism defending a genocide by a pseudo ethnic state. It’s clear whatever FAIR is motivated by it isn’t what FAIR claims it is. It is remarkable to see the growing popular shift against Zionism though. It’s becoming more and more just an establishment fringe ideology that has enormous power but less and less democratic support. The more people learn, the more that will happen.
Not everyone has to own specifically beach front property to have a good home, and not everyone would wants permanent home on the beach. Temporary, seasonal residences could be shared by many.
The fruit of your labor would not be distributed by bureaucrats. You would decide where you wanted to live permanently. Freedom and security come from being secure and having material access to the full fruit of your labor. Those with more than others under class rule invariably call the shots name have more freedom and rights. Such would not be the case if workers owned productive property communal and shared in that abundance.
Human nature is adaptable. We develop behavior and desires based on the economic rules under which we are compelled to operate in. That includes your nature, and mine.
Many supporters of capitalism will say that the failure of the American iteration of it is because it's "not really capitalism." If it requires money to run; if products are commodities to be sold at a profit; if industries are owned & run by a few, it's a variation of capitalism. That is not a classless, stateless, and moneyless economy envisaged by Marx and Engels.
I do, of course, fully agree with your last paragraph. It's good to be unified with you on that, because I most certainly didn't sign up with FAIR to promote Zionism. At least this happened early in its existence as a warning sign to its members. I too find it refreshing to see more people standing up to this destructive form of identity politics. All identity politics has big money and a lot of emotion supporting it, but now that Israel has gone too far, the tide is turning.
Honestly the classless stateless and moneyless economy envisaged by Marx and engels is incoherent to me. it is like a square circle. but is wrapped in utopian optimism. I think some of the things they thought about the value of labor for example are fundamentally erroneous. value is largely subjective. profit is not simply the exploitation of labor. profit among other things can be reward for risk. I don't particularly care to go into the details of my criticism of marxism here. you're welcome to message me and we can discuss it if you want though.
"Crimes of actual antisemitism" far predated the creation of Israel and will persist after whatever reforms Israel might make to your liking.
Crimes of antisemitism do not happen in a vacuum. They do not happen because hatred against Jews is somehow "wired into" human nature. The worst thing to do to "eliminate" bigotry against Jews -- or any other ethnic or religious demographic -- is create an ethno-centric nation-state that claims to be a "protection" bulwark for Jewish people that basically behaves the exact same way towards other groups that real anti-semites behaved against Jews. And then claim the actions of that state are taken in the name of all Jews.
All forms of bigotry are based on power discrepancies in society between different demographics, with some blaming others rather than blaming the system of class rule itself. That is the basis -- and curse -- of identity politics. And FAIR was supposed to have been formed to combat identity politics.
The claim that Israel "behaves the exact same way towards other groups that real anti-semites behaved against Jews" is adding to the slanders already appearing on this page. Readily available facts contradict this claim and you can find them if you're willing.
Class doesn't explain everything, particularly not theocratic Islam, and Marxist class analysis failed to illuminate many things to which it was supposed to pertain. Zionism is an attempt to preserve a particular ethno-religious cohort. That does not make it "identity politics" in the sense with which FAIR is concerned. The only contradiction here is the one you created by mislabeling Zionism as such.
Israel is an apartheid state. And is carrying out a genocide. There is nothing slanderous about that. Its fact. International courts have already recognized it as an apartheid state. And its genocide is currently under review. You can find these facts if you are willing.
And the U.S. government is funding its apartheid and genocide.
In July, a committee attached the ICJ issued an advisory opinion which mentioned that "A number of participants have argued that Israel’s policies and practices in the Occupied Palestinian Territory amount to segregation or apartheid." This was blown up into something it wasn't by parties eager to proclaim Israel a criminal enterprise and their remarks were repeated by the usual dupes.
The charges of genocide brought to the ICJ by South Africa, of all places, are spurious. Thus far they have resulted in the ICJ ordering Israel not to attack Rafah, which Israel ignored, thus rescuing a half-dozen hostages and exposing fifty entrances leading to Hamas terror tunnels positioned in Egypt, who is the biggest recipient of US foreign aid after Israel and Jordan. This throws the already dubious credibility of the ICJ into the dumpster. Like you repeated back at me, the facts are available if you're willing.
What your remarks have to do with the opinions of the author of the original post is not clear, except to demonstrate how motivated anti-Zionists are to stomp on Jews. Gut yontif to you as well - it's the evening of Yom Kippur, as you're no doubt aware.
My remarks have to do with your comment. I was replying to you. And you specifically wrote :
'The claim that Israel "behaves the exact same way towards other groups that real anti-semites behaved against Jews" is adding to the slanders already appearing on this page'
The notion that I'm just "trying to stomp on jews" by directly replying to your comment is the height of tribalistic victim pleading.Fortunately not all jews are zionists. but it has become increasingly clear and obvious many zionists want people to believe that so when people disparage Zionism then those zionists can *slander* critics of Zionism as "anti Semites" or "jew haters" or in your words-"jew stompers".
As for the icj *court* advisory opinion. it can be read and full here:
https://www.icj-cij.org/sites/default/files/case-related/186/186-20240719-adv-01-00-en.pdf
you are quoting part of two twenty four:
"224. A number of participants have argued that Israel’s policies and practices in the Occupied
Palestinian Territory amount to segregation or apartheid, in breach of Article 3 of CERD."
but there is much much more. two other parts make the opinion of the court explicit.
"225. Article 3 of CERD provides as follows: “States Parties particularly condemn racial
segregation and apartheid and undertake to prevent, prohibit and eradicate all practices of this nature
in territories under their jurisdiction.” This provision refers to two particularly severe forms of racial
discrimination: racial segregation and apartheid."
"229. The Court observes that Israel’s legislation and measures impose and serve to maintain a
near-complete separation in the West Bank and East Jerusalem between the settler and Palestinian
communities. For this reason, the Court considers that Israel’s legislation and measures constitute a
breach of Article 3 of CERD."
it seems like to me that zionists are trying to minimize and distort the court's opinion.
And what you said about Egypt and hamas is irrelevant with regard to whether israel is carrying out a genocide. I dislike hamas and I don't think the u.s. government should be giving any money to Egypt. and I don't think likud should be carrying out a genocide. and the u.s. government should not be funding that either. israel is the number one recipient of us aid while it should be receiving nothing. insofar as israel is receiving the most aid and carrying out a genocide it should be no surprise to anyone that many americans have disparaging things to say about the apartheid state of israel. many of us do not like our tax money stolen to carry out atrocities.
As I already explained, the ICJ is a clown show with a history of maliciously directing Israel to injure itself. As for the antisemitism, there's not another explanation for why Julia here can't say that deplatforming supporters of Israel is wrong without a bunch of ninnies showing up in her comments to blither about "apartheid" and "genocide." China has as many Muslim prisoners as Israel has enfranchised Muslim citizens - why do they not complain of Chinese apartheid? Egypt is converting US aid into material support for Hamas - why are they not complaining about the theft of their taxes for the funding of Hamas's genocide (and unlike Israel's campaign, that actually is genocide)? And the answer is obvious - the kind of people who used to excoriate the Jews in their nations are now excoriating Jews in their own nation.
There is very rarely an explanation other than “anti-semitism” by Zionists for any disparagement of the Israeli state policy or American foreign policy related to Israel. Zionists tend to have a hard time understanding why anyone would be opposed to funding Israeli state injustices unless they have a murderous racial hatred of Jews, because I guess, to the ears of Zionists, people who dislike injustice, if it’s conducted by Zionists, can only be racists.
Your argument has shifted. First you simply quoted an incomplete statement from the icj and said people were blowing it out of proportion, now you are saying that the icj is just a clown show. You should have just started with that and not even bothered to quote anything from a document you probably never looked at.
Israel is a relatively small, wealthy state that receives a substantially disproportionate amount of foreign aid from the United States — the most out of any country since its inception. And that foreign aid is given almost entirely unconditionally and isn’t tracked in any coherent way. The aid is used to carry out war crimes and other atrocities for the sake of defending a state’s apartheid regime that was established through terrorism and ethnic cleansing around 75 years ago. Some of the people who were victims of the ethnic cleansing are still alive. And the regime is now carrying out a genocide against those people, systematically starving the population for actions taken by an organization(Hamas) that the state of Israel helped cultivate itself and knew of its plans before they were executed.
The lobbying arm of that state (Israel) has massive influence over Congress such that the majority are now trying to legally equate criticizing the foundational ideology of that state with racism. Its domestic lobby agents openly boast about how much money they spend and give to politicians and scheme to avoid being identified legally as foreign agents.
There is no other country that has a relationship to the U.S. that fits that description. And therefore there is no reason to expect people to react to another state in a like manner. Bringing up China is completely ridiculous as the U.S. government has an open adversarial relationship with China. It routinely condemns the policies of China. It’s currently attempting to ban social media apps developed by Chinese companies largely because it doesn’t like what people are saying about Israel on it. The U.S. doesn’t give foreign aid (tax money)to China like Israel. Why would people be spending the equivalent amount of energy on it? Your question is absolutely ridiculous. Israel acquires the most foreign aid so Israel should receive the greatest scrutiny. Calling that outlook anti Semitism is just slanderous Zionist propaganda. Everyone has the right to scrutinize where their tax dollars are being sent.
Egypt is a country that is funded primarily to try to control its relationship to Israel’s interests, even though it’s not always entirely successful. The foreign aid to Egypt may as well be counted toward the foreign aid to Israel because if it wasn’t for Israel, Egypt would be getting a lot less or nothing. I don’t like any money going to Egypt either. So I don’t know why you are bringing them up. You are talking to me, not people who support that funding. What does it have to do with *my* criticism? You seem to have accused me of “stomping on Jews” and suggested I am anti semitic substantially on the basis of what other people may think or do.
Hamas is an organization that was cultivated by the Israeli government precisely because Hamas doesn’t want a two state solution; without Israel’s complicity Hamas would never had grown into the creature it is. I don’t like Hamas though, so bringing up the badness of Hamas is irrelevant, especially when they only exist because the state of Israel found them useful for its plans to acquire “greater Israel”. The U.S. shouldn’t be funding Israel, Egypt, Hamas, China, Saudi Arabia, Ukraine…i imagine any country you bring up.
The idea that I express anti semitism, when I don’t even believe Jews are a race, is such an outlandish accusation that anyone who would think or suggest that has to be, ignorant, brainwashed or malicious. Christian or muslim Gazans are no less likely to have "semitic" ancestry than Israeli jews. Plausibly even more likely. Yet here I am advocating that the us government does not fund the genocide of those semitic people. To the chagrin of many zionists, it's a fact that not all jews have semitic ancestry nor are all people with semitic ancestry are Jews. Jews are a religious tribe. It is a choice to be a jew just like it's a choice to be a christian or Scientologist. And it's a choice to be a zionist jew specifically just like it's a choice to be a lutheran christian.
Julia isn’t just complaining about deplatforming, she is expressing political opinions about the apartheid state of Israel. I actually agree that the Zionist shouldn’t have been deplatformed. That’s not the only thing she discussed though. She also for example suggested that Jews are a race, which is a religious myth that FAIR should not be platforming without any piece that points out why that is erroneous. FAIR is violating its mission by privileging the voices of Zionism, a pseudo ethnic religious ideology at the foundation of an apartheid state currently carrying out a genocide and trying to ethnically cleanse territory.
That’s plenty good reason for anyone to comment about genocide and apartheid here.
Hamas has not committed a genocide even though it has committed atrocities; it does not have the means to currently carry out a genocide. Once Hamas starts to systematically starve the Israeli population then you can have compelling reason to accuse them of carrying out a genocide. Unfortunately, even at that point the Israeli government would still hold substantial responsibility since it has cultivated Hamas. Though, I have no problem denouncing Hamas regardless of whether it is carrying out a genocide. But Likud has no right to starve all Gazan children for what Hamas did a year ago anymore than Hamas has the right to starve all Israeli children for anything the Israeli state has done over the past 75 years.
How about you ask FAIR to platform you and I to discuss Zionism and anti Zionism? I think it would be fruitful. It’s a bit silly for Julia to come to a place that doesn’t platform anti Zionists complaining about how some other place doesn’t platform Zionists.
FAIR was already aware of the irrationality of the anti-Zionist position. But it's difficult to convey what a bunch of boilerplate-spewing monomaniacs they are, so thank you for the demonstration.
Israel is not practicing apartheid and accusing it of genocide is racist.