Crimes of antisemitism do not happen in a vacuum. They do not happen because hatred against Jews is somehow "wired into" human nature. The worst thing to do to "eliminate" bigotry against Jews -- or any other ethnic or religious demographic -- is create an ethno-centric nation-state that claims to be a "protection" bulwark for Jewish peo…
Crimes of antisemitism do not happen in a vacuum. They do not happen because hatred against Jews is somehow "wired into" human nature. The worst thing to do to "eliminate" bigotry against Jews -- or any other ethnic or religious demographic -- is create an ethno-centric nation-state that claims to be a "protection" bulwark for Jewish people that basically behaves the exact same way towards other groups that real anti-semites behaved against Jews. And then claim the actions of that state are taken in the name of all Jews.
All forms of bigotry are based on power discrepancies in society between different demographics, with some blaming others rather than blaming the system of class rule itself. That is the basis -- and curse -- of identity politics. And FAIR was supposed to have been formed to combat identity politics.
The claim that Israel "behaves the exact same way towards other groups that real anti-semites behaved against Jews" is adding to the slanders already appearing on this page. Readily available facts contradict this claim and you can find them if you're willing.
Class doesn't explain everything, particularly not theocratic Islam, and Marxist class analysis failed to illuminate many things to which it was supposed to pertain. Zionism is an attempt to preserve a particular ethno-religious cohort. That does not make it "identity politics" in the sense with which FAIR is concerned. The only contradiction here is the one you created by mislabeling Zionism as such.
Israel is an apartheid state. And is carrying out a genocide. There is nothing slanderous about that. Its fact. International courts have already recognized it as an apartheid state. And its genocide is currently under review. You can find these facts if you are willing.
And the U.S. government is funding its apartheid and genocide.
In July, a committee attached the ICJ issued an advisory opinion which mentioned that "A number of participants have argued that Israel’s policies and practices in the Occupied Palestinian Territory amount to segregation or apartheid." This was blown up into something it wasn't by parties eager to proclaim Israel a criminal enterprise and their remarks were repeated by the usual dupes.
The charges of genocide brought to the ICJ by South Africa, of all places, are spurious. Thus far they have resulted in the ICJ ordering Israel not to attack Rafah, which Israel ignored, thus rescuing a half-dozen hostages and exposing fifty entrances leading to Hamas terror tunnels positioned in Egypt, who is the biggest recipient of US foreign aid after Israel and Jordan. This throws the already dubious credibility of the ICJ into the dumpster. Like you repeated back at me, the facts are available if you're willing.
What your remarks have to do with the opinions of the author of the original post is not clear, except to demonstrate how motivated anti-Zionists are to stomp on Jews. Gut yontif to you as well - it's the evening of Yom Kippur, as you're no doubt aware.
My remarks have to do with your comment. I was replying to you. And you specifically wrote :
'The claim that Israel "behaves the exact same way towards other groups that real anti-semites behaved against Jews" is adding to the slanders already appearing on this page'
The notion that I'm just "trying to stomp on jews" by directly replying to your comment is the height of tribalistic victim pleading.Fortunately not all jews are zionists. but it has become increasingly clear and obvious many zionists want people to believe that so when people disparage Zionism then those zionists can *slander* critics of Zionism as "anti Semites" or "jew haters" or in your words-"jew stompers".
As for the icj *court* advisory opinion. it can be read and full here:
"224. A number of participants have argued that Israel’s policies and practices in the Occupied
Palestinian Territory amount to segregation or apartheid, in breach of Article 3 of CERD."
but there is much much more. two other parts make the opinion of the court explicit.
"225. Article 3 of CERD provides as follows: “States Parties particularly condemn racial
segregation and apartheid and undertake to prevent, prohibit and eradicate all practices of this nature
in territories under their jurisdiction.” This provision refers to two particularly severe forms of racial
discrimination: racial segregation and apartheid."
"229. The Court observes that Israel’s legislation and measures impose and serve to maintain a
near-complete separation in the West Bank and East Jerusalem between the settler and Palestinian
communities. For this reason, the Court considers that Israel’s legislation and measures constitute a
breach of Article 3 of CERD."
it seems like to me that zionists are trying to minimize and distort the court's opinion.
And what you said about Egypt and hamas is irrelevant with regard to whether israel is carrying out a genocide. I dislike hamas and I don't think the u.s. government should be giving any money to Egypt. and I don't think likud should be carrying out a genocide. and the u.s. government should not be funding that either. israel is the number one recipient of us aid while it should be receiving nothing. insofar as israel is receiving the most aid and carrying out a genocide it should be no surprise to anyone that many americans have disparaging things to say about the apartheid state of israel. many of us do not like our tax money stolen to carry out atrocities.
As I already explained, the ICJ is a clown show with a history of maliciously directing Israel to injure itself. As for the antisemitism, there's not another explanation for why Julia here can't say that deplatforming supporters of Israel is wrong without a bunch of ninnies showing up in her comments to blither about "apartheid" and "genocide." China has as many Muslim prisoners as Israel has enfranchised Muslim citizens - why do they not complain of Chinese apartheid? Egypt is converting US aid into material support for Hamas - why are they not complaining about the theft of their taxes for the funding of Hamas's genocide (and unlike Israel's campaign, that actually is genocide)? And the answer is obvious - the kind of people who used to excoriate the Jews in their nations are now excoriating Jews in their own nation.
There is very rarely an explanation other than “anti-semitism” by Zionists for any disparagement of the Israeli state policy or American foreign policy related to Israel. Zionists tend to have a hard time understanding why anyone would be opposed to funding Israeli state injustices unless they have a murderous racial hatred of Jews, because I guess, to the ears of Zionists, people who dislike injustice, if it’s conducted by Zionists, can only be racists.
Your argument has shifted. First you simply quoted an incomplete statement from the icj and said people were blowing it out of proportion, now you are saying that the icj is just a clown show. You should have just started with that and not even bothered to quote anything from a document you probably never looked at.
Israel is a relatively small, wealthy state that receives a substantially disproportionate amount of foreign aid from the United States — the most out of any country since its inception. And that foreign aid is given almost entirely unconditionally and isn’t tracked in any coherent way. The aid is used to carry out war crimes and other atrocities for the sake of defending a state’s apartheid regime that was established through terrorism and ethnic cleansing around 75 years ago. Some of the people who were victims of the ethnic cleansing are still alive. And the regime is now carrying out a genocide against those people, systematically starving the population for actions taken by an organization(Hamas) that the state of Israel helped cultivate itself and knew of its plans before they were executed.
The lobbying arm of that state (Israel) has massive influence over Congress such that the majority are now trying to legally equate criticizing the foundational ideology of that state with racism. Its domestic lobby agents openly boast about how much money they spend and give to politicians and scheme to avoid being identified legally as foreign agents.
There is no other country that has a relationship to the U.S. that fits that description. And therefore there is no reason to expect people to react to another state in a like manner. Bringing up China is completely ridiculous as the U.S. government has an open adversarial relationship with China. It routinely condemns the policies of China. It’s currently attempting to ban social media apps developed by Chinese companies largely because it doesn’t like what people are saying about Israel on it. The U.S. doesn’t give foreign aid (tax money)to China like Israel. Why would people be spending the equivalent amount of energy on it? Your question is absolutely ridiculous. Israel acquires the most foreign aid so Israel should receive the greatest scrutiny. Calling that outlook anti Semitism is just slanderous Zionist propaganda. Everyone has the right to scrutinize where their tax dollars are being sent.
Egypt is a country that is funded primarily to try to control its relationship to Israel’s interests, even though it’s not always entirely successful. The foreign aid to Egypt may as well be counted toward the foreign aid to Israel because if it wasn’t for Israel, Egypt would be getting a lot less or nothing. I don’t like any money going to Egypt either. So I don’t know why you are bringing them up. You are talking to me, not people who support that funding. What does it have to do with *my* criticism? You seem to have accused me of “stomping on Jews” and suggested I am anti semitic substantially on the basis of what other people may think or do.
Hamas is an organization that was cultivated by the Israeli government precisely because Hamas doesn’t want a two state solution; without Israel’s complicity Hamas would never had grown into the creature it is. I don’t like Hamas though, so bringing up the badness of Hamas is irrelevant, especially when they only exist because the state of Israel found them useful for its plans to acquire “greater Israel”. The U.S. shouldn’t be funding Israel, Egypt, Hamas, China, Saudi Arabia, Ukraine…i imagine any country you bring up.
The idea that I express anti semitism, when I don’t even believe Jews are a race, is such an outlandish accusation that anyone who would think or suggest that has to be, ignorant, brainwashed or malicious. Christian or muslim Gazans are no less likely to have "semitic" ancestry than Israeli jews. Plausibly even more likely. Yet here I am advocating that the us government does not fund the genocide of those semitic people. To the chagrin of many zionists, it's a fact that not all jews have semitic ancestry nor are all people with semitic ancestry are Jews. Jews are a religious tribe. It is a choice to be a jew just like it's a choice to be a christian or Scientologist. And it's a choice to be a zionist jew specifically just like it's a choice to be a lutheran christian.
Julia isn’t just complaining about deplatforming, she is expressing political opinions about the apartheid state of Israel. I actually agree that the Zionist shouldn’t have been deplatformed. That’s not the only thing she discussed though. She also for example suggested that Jews are a race, which is a religious myth that FAIR should not be platforming without any piece that points out why that is erroneous. FAIR is violating its mission by privileging the voices of Zionism, a pseudo ethnic religious ideology at the foundation of an apartheid state currently carrying out a genocide and trying to ethnically cleanse territory.
That’s plenty good reason for anyone to comment about genocide and apartheid here.
Hamas has not committed a genocide even though it has committed atrocities; it does not have the means to currently carry out a genocide. Once Hamas starts to systematically starve the Israeli population then you can have compelling reason to accuse them of carrying out a genocide. Unfortunately, even at that point the Israeli government would still hold substantial responsibility since it has cultivated Hamas. Though, I have no problem denouncing Hamas regardless of whether it is carrying out a genocide. But Likud has no right to starve all Gazan children for what Hamas did a year ago anymore than Hamas has the right to starve all Israeli children for anything the Israeli state has done over the past 75 years.
How about you ask FAIR to platform you and I to discuss Zionism and anti Zionism? I think it would be fruitful. It’s a bit silly for Julia to come to a place that doesn’t platform anti Zionists complaining about how some other place doesn’t platform Zionists.
FAIR was already aware of the irrationality of the anti-Zionist position. But it's difficult to convey what a bunch of boilerplate-spewing monomaniacs they are, so thank you for the demonstration.
Israel is not practicing apartheid and accusing it of genocide is racist.
Israel is an apartheid state and is committing a racist genocide. Me calling it a genocide is anti-racism.
Lemme know when you want FAIR to no longer have even less integrity than BLM and we can take our disagreement to a public forum where people can listen to our views openly and without disruption.
The political situation in Israel is not germane to FAIR's mission. There are plenty of other organizations for whom it is, though. Have one of them invite me to a debate, if you can find one that will platform a Zionist.
Crimes of antisemitism do not happen in a vacuum. They do not happen because hatred against Jews is somehow "wired into" human nature. The worst thing to do to "eliminate" bigotry against Jews -- or any other ethnic or religious demographic -- is create an ethno-centric nation-state that claims to be a "protection" bulwark for Jewish people that basically behaves the exact same way towards other groups that real anti-semites behaved against Jews. And then claim the actions of that state are taken in the name of all Jews.
All forms of bigotry are based on power discrepancies in society between different demographics, with some blaming others rather than blaming the system of class rule itself. That is the basis -- and curse -- of identity politics. And FAIR was supposed to have been formed to combat identity politics.
The claim that Israel "behaves the exact same way towards other groups that real anti-semites behaved against Jews" is adding to the slanders already appearing on this page. Readily available facts contradict this claim and you can find them if you're willing.
Class doesn't explain everything, particularly not theocratic Islam, and Marxist class analysis failed to illuminate many things to which it was supposed to pertain. Zionism is an attempt to preserve a particular ethno-religious cohort. That does not make it "identity politics" in the sense with which FAIR is concerned. The only contradiction here is the one you created by mislabeling Zionism as such.
Israel is an apartheid state. And is carrying out a genocide. There is nothing slanderous about that. Its fact. International courts have already recognized it as an apartheid state. And its genocide is currently under review. You can find these facts if you are willing.
And the U.S. government is funding its apartheid and genocide.
In July, a committee attached the ICJ issued an advisory opinion which mentioned that "A number of participants have argued that Israel’s policies and practices in the Occupied Palestinian Territory amount to segregation or apartheid." This was blown up into something it wasn't by parties eager to proclaim Israel a criminal enterprise and their remarks were repeated by the usual dupes.
The charges of genocide brought to the ICJ by South Africa, of all places, are spurious. Thus far they have resulted in the ICJ ordering Israel not to attack Rafah, which Israel ignored, thus rescuing a half-dozen hostages and exposing fifty entrances leading to Hamas terror tunnels positioned in Egypt, who is the biggest recipient of US foreign aid after Israel and Jordan. This throws the already dubious credibility of the ICJ into the dumpster. Like you repeated back at me, the facts are available if you're willing.
What your remarks have to do with the opinions of the author of the original post is not clear, except to demonstrate how motivated anti-Zionists are to stomp on Jews. Gut yontif to you as well - it's the evening of Yom Kippur, as you're no doubt aware.
My remarks have to do with your comment. I was replying to you. And you specifically wrote :
'The claim that Israel "behaves the exact same way towards other groups that real anti-semites behaved against Jews" is adding to the slanders already appearing on this page'
The notion that I'm just "trying to stomp on jews" by directly replying to your comment is the height of tribalistic victim pleading.Fortunately not all jews are zionists. but it has become increasingly clear and obvious many zionists want people to believe that so when people disparage Zionism then those zionists can *slander* critics of Zionism as "anti Semites" or "jew haters" or in your words-"jew stompers".
As for the icj *court* advisory opinion. it can be read and full here:
https://www.icj-cij.org/sites/default/files/case-related/186/186-20240719-adv-01-00-en.pdf
you are quoting part of two twenty four:
"224. A number of participants have argued that Israel’s policies and practices in the Occupied
Palestinian Territory amount to segregation or apartheid, in breach of Article 3 of CERD."
but there is much much more. two other parts make the opinion of the court explicit.
"225. Article 3 of CERD provides as follows: “States Parties particularly condemn racial
segregation and apartheid and undertake to prevent, prohibit and eradicate all practices of this nature
in territories under their jurisdiction.” This provision refers to two particularly severe forms of racial
discrimination: racial segregation and apartheid."
"229. The Court observes that Israel’s legislation and measures impose and serve to maintain a
near-complete separation in the West Bank and East Jerusalem between the settler and Palestinian
communities. For this reason, the Court considers that Israel’s legislation and measures constitute a
breach of Article 3 of CERD."
it seems like to me that zionists are trying to minimize and distort the court's opinion.
And what you said about Egypt and hamas is irrelevant with regard to whether israel is carrying out a genocide. I dislike hamas and I don't think the u.s. government should be giving any money to Egypt. and I don't think likud should be carrying out a genocide. and the u.s. government should not be funding that either. israel is the number one recipient of us aid while it should be receiving nothing. insofar as israel is receiving the most aid and carrying out a genocide it should be no surprise to anyone that many americans have disparaging things to say about the apartheid state of israel. many of us do not like our tax money stolen to carry out atrocities.
As I already explained, the ICJ is a clown show with a history of maliciously directing Israel to injure itself. As for the antisemitism, there's not another explanation for why Julia here can't say that deplatforming supporters of Israel is wrong without a bunch of ninnies showing up in her comments to blither about "apartheid" and "genocide." China has as many Muslim prisoners as Israel has enfranchised Muslim citizens - why do they not complain of Chinese apartheid? Egypt is converting US aid into material support for Hamas - why are they not complaining about the theft of their taxes for the funding of Hamas's genocide (and unlike Israel's campaign, that actually is genocide)? And the answer is obvious - the kind of people who used to excoriate the Jews in their nations are now excoriating Jews in their own nation.
There is very rarely an explanation other than “anti-semitism” by Zionists for any disparagement of the Israeli state policy or American foreign policy related to Israel. Zionists tend to have a hard time understanding why anyone would be opposed to funding Israeli state injustices unless they have a murderous racial hatred of Jews, because I guess, to the ears of Zionists, people who dislike injustice, if it’s conducted by Zionists, can only be racists.
Your argument has shifted. First you simply quoted an incomplete statement from the icj and said people were blowing it out of proportion, now you are saying that the icj is just a clown show. You should have just started with that and not even bothered to quote anything from a document you probably never looked at.
Israel is a relatively small, wealthy state that receives a substantially disproportionate amount of foreign aid from the United States — the most out of any country since its inception. And that foreign aid is given almost entirely unconditionally and isn’t tracked in any coherent way. The aid is used to carry out war crimes and other atrocities for the sake of defending a state’s apartheid regime that was established through terrorism and ethnic cleansing around 75 years ago. Some of the people who were victims of the ethnic cleansing are still alive. And the regime is now carrying out a genocide against those people, systematically starving the population for actions taken by an organization(Hamas) that the state of Israel helped cultivate itself and knew of its plans before they were executed.
The lobbying arm of that state (Israel) has massive influence over Congress such that the majority are now trying to legally equate criticizing the foundational ideology of that state with racism. Its domestic lobby agents openly boast about how much money they spend and give to politicians and scheme to avoid being identified legally as foreign agents.
There is no other country that has a relationship to the U.S. that fits that description. And therefore there is no reason to expect people to react to another state in a like manner. Bringing up China is completely ridiculous as the U.S. government has an open adversarial relationship with China. It routinely condemns the policies of China. It’s currently attempting to ban social media apps developed by Chinese companies largely because it doesn’t like what people are saying about Israel on it. The U.S. doesn’t give foreign aid (tax money)to China like Israel. Why would people be spending the equivalent amount of energy on it? Your question is absolutely ridiculous. Israel acquires the most foreign aid so Israel should receive the greatest scrutiny. Calling that outlook anti Semitism is just slanderous Zionist propaganda. Everyone has the right to scrutinize where their tax dollars are being sent.
Egypt is a country that is funded primarily to try to control its relationship to Israel’s interests, even though it’s not always entirely successful. The foreign aid to Egypt may as well be counted toward the foreign aid to Israel because if it wasn’t for Israel, Egypt would be getting a lot less or nothing. I don’t like any money going to Egypt either. So I don’t know why you are bringing them up. You are talking to me, not people who support that funding. What does it have to do with *my* criticism? You seem to have accused me of “stomping on Jews” and suggested I am anti semitic substantially on the basis of what other people may think or do.
Hamas is an organization that was cultivated by the Israeli government precisely because Hamas doesn’t want a two state solution; without Israel’s complicity Hamas would never had grown into the creature it is. I don’t like Hamas though, so bringing up the badness of Hamas is irrelevant, especially when they only exist because the state of Israel found them useful for its plans to acquire “greater Israel”. The U.S. shouldn’t be funding Israel, Egypt, Hamas, China, Saudi Arabia, Ukraine…i imagine any country you bring up.
The idea that I express anti semitism, when I don’t even believe Jews are a race, is such an outlandish accusation that anyone who would think or suggest that has to be, ignorant, brainwashed or malicious. Christian or muslim Gazans are no less likely to have "semitic" ancestry than Israeli jews. Plausibly even more likely. Yet here I am advocating that the us government does not fund the genocide of those semitic people. To the chagrin of many zionists, it's a fact that not all jews have semitic ancestry nor are all people with semitic ancestry are Jews. Jews are a religious tribe. It is a choice to be a jew just like it's a choice to be a christian or Scientologist. And it's a choice to be a zionist jew specifically just like it's a choice to be a lutheran christian.
Julia isn’t just complaining about deplatforming, she is expressing political opinions about the apartheid state of Israel. I actually agree that the Zionist shouldn’t have been deplatformed. That’s not the only thing she discussed though. She also for example suggested that Jews are a race, which is a religious myth that FAIR should not be platforming without any piece that points out why that is erroneous. FAIR is violating its mission by privileging the voices of Zionism, a pseudo ethnic religious ideology at the foundation of an apartheid state currently carrying out a genocide and trying to ethnically cleanse territory.
That’s plenty good reason for anyone to comment about genocide and apartheid here.
Hamas has not committed a genocide even though it has committed atrocities; it does not have the means to currently carry out a genocide. Once Hamas starts to systematically starve the Israeli population then you can have compelling reason to accuse them of carrying out a genocide. Unfortunately, even at that point the Israeli government would still hold substantial responsibility since it has cultivated Hamas. Though, I have no problem denouncing Hamas regardless of whether it is carrying out a genocide. But Likud has no right to starve all Gazan children for what Hamas did a year ago anymore than Hamas has the right to starve all Israeli children for anything the Israeli state has done over the past 75 years.
How about you ask FAIR to platform you and I to discuss Zionism and anti Zionism? I think it would be fruitful. It’s a bit silly for Julia to come to a place that doesn’t platform anti Zionists complaining about how some other place doesn’t platform Zionists.
FAIR was already aware of the irrationality of the anti-Zionist position. But it's difficult to convey what a bunch of boilerplate-spewing monomaniacs they are, so thank you for the demonstration.
Israel is not practicing apartheid and accusing it of genocide is racist.
Israel is an apartheid state and is committing a racist genocide. Me calling it a genocide is anti-racism.
Lemme know when you want FAIR to no longer have even less integrity than BLM and we can take our disagreement to a public forum where people can listen to our views openly and without disruption.
The political situation in Israel is not germane to FAIR's mission. There are plenty of other organizations for whom it is, though. Have one of them invite me to a debate, if you can find one that will platform a Zionist.