.....So you think Palestinians would actually marry Jews? Play it all back on yourself and you'll find what an absolute lie you're supporting. And really don't confuse Hamas as being something that's actually legitimate. They are terrorists! They terrorise the population and oppose everything we stand for! And if you support Hamas, you a…
.....So you think Palestinians would actually marry Jews? Play it all back on yourself and you'll find what an absolute lie you're supporting. And really don't confuse Hamas as being something that's actually legitimate. They are terrorists! They terrorise the population and oppose everything we stand for! And if you support Hamas, you are absolutely supporting an ethno state and Nazis - extermanists!! if you support Hamas and the absolution of Israel, then you are completing the job because all of the Middle East has completely killed off Jews. They are no Jews in Egypt. Iraq, Syria, etc. You're on the wrong side of this! Israel is the only place in the Middle East that has a democracy and equal rights for women. It has a democracy, the Middle East has a very big problem with democracy and freedom of speech!
I can tell you've not gone there. And I can tell you don't know that! the Bible has the names of Judea, Jerusalem. While the term "Palestine" was used in the 5th century BCE, the Jewish claim to the land is based on a history in the region dating back to the 1st century BCE and earlier!
5th century BCE: The term "Palestine" used by Greek historian Herodotus
1st century BCE and earlier: Jewish presence in the region established, yearning for return and sovereignty present in religious texts and tradition
1st-2nd century CE: Jewish-Roman wars lead to displacement of many Jews, but the yearning for return remains strong
7th century CE: Arab conquest, Islam introduced, Jewish presence continues but faces challenges under new rule
16th century - 1917: Ottoman rule, Jewish presence continues, with ongoing yearning for return and self-determination
19th century: Rise of Zionism, Jewish immigration increases, driven by the desire to return to their ancestral homeland
1917: Balfour Declaration supports establishment of Jewish homeland
1948: State of Israel established, mass immigration of Jews, fulfilling the long-held dream of returning to their homeland
"....So you think Palestinians would actually marry Jews?"
I think a Palestinian would definitely want to marry a Jew if they happened to meet one and the two fell in love with each other. I do not agree that mutual hatred between the two ethnic groups should be encouraged, because that is something both demographics will have to get past once a true egalitarian democracy is established in that land and both Zionism and Sharia Law are not legally recognized as law.
"Play it all back on yourself and you'll find what an absolute lie you're supporting. And really don't confuse Hamas as being something that's actually legitimate. They are terrorists!"
And what do you call the behavior of the IDF towards the Palestinians for many decades now? Hamas is a reaction to that. I do not want to see any innocents killed, but that is what happens when one group is provoked and oppressed and they are given no peaceful recourse. I want to see a world where both the IDF and Hamas are gone.
"They terrorise the population and oppose everything we stand for! And if you support Hamas, you are absolutely supporting an ethno state and Nazis - extermanists!!"
And Zionism is not extremist? And I oppose Zionism as much as I oppose Sharia Law. I would never respect a government that put either form of identity politics or theocratic tenets or ethnocentricism into law and government policy.
"if you support Hamas and the absolution of Israel, then you are completing the job because all of the Middle East has completely killed off Jews."
Opposition to Zionism is not hatred for Jewish people -- it is opposition to ethnocentric bias that, in this case, translates into a doctrine of Jewish supremacy based on perpetual victlmhood, the very definition of identity politics. Zionism does not "protect" Jewish people, it turns them into the same type of monsters that once terrorized them and provokes actual antisemitism against them. Many Jewish people also oppose Zionism, as they believe it is taking the very *wrong* lessons from the Holocaust.
"You're on the wrong side of this! Israel is the only place in the Middle East that has a democracy and equal rights for women. It has a democracy, the Middle East has a very big problem with democracy and freedom of speech! "
Zionists have an *extreme* problem with free speech, considering how on behalf of Israel the Zionists under the financial control of AIPAC have actually written into law a ban on criticizing Zionism and sent the police to beat up peaceful protesters against the slaughter in Gaza. And as Max Blumenthal, Aaron Mate, and other Jewish journalists who spent a lot of time in both Israel and Gaza noted in those videos I shared, Israel is most assuredly not a democracy. Saying it's okay to ban marriage between Jews and Palestinians because "they wouldn't want to marry each other anyway" is missing the point and rationalizing a lack of democracy, i.e., freedom of choice, right there.
"I can tell you've not gone there."
Since I am not of Jewish ethnicity or religion, I couldn't just travel there like any Jewish person in the world could. Lack of democracy right there. And as I pointed out in those videos, many people of Jewish descent who *have* been there make it clear it is not a democracy. Zionists claim otherwise because it favors their ideology. That is not democracy, that is ethnocentrism.
"And I can tell you don't know that! the Bible has the names of Judea, Jerusalem. While the term "Palestine" was used in the 5th century BCE, the Jewish claim to the land is based on a history in the region dating back to the 1st century BCE and earlier!"
It doesn't matter what the Bible says, because any law respecting that would automatically be a theocracy, *not* a democracy. And Palestinians have been there for ages too, at least as long. I do not agree that Jewish people should be kicked off the land. I believe that Zionists should not have the right to kick *other* people off the land, and should share it with others as equals. I do not support any system based on Zionism or Sharia Law, or a Christian theocracy etc.
"1948: State of Israel established, mass immigration of Jews, fulfilling the long-held dream of returning to their homeland"
No group of people have the right to fulfill a dream if it constitutes another group's nightmare. That is, no group should have the right to gain at the expense of another. Every demographic in the world needs to learn to share land and resources equitably, not "claim" it for their group alone due to some ancient theocratic doctrine that other religions will not recognize. There are no "chosen" people in a universal sense, that is an extreme form of chauvinism. And Judaism is also not equivalent to Zionism, and many deeply religious Jews rightfully oppose it for that reason. Israel needs to be replaced with a true secular democracy where Jews, Palestinians, and anyone else willing to live there peacefully allowed to do so, and where Zionism, Sharia Law, etc are not recognized as legal policy.
As for the allegation that the Bible says that God "gave" that land to the Jewish people, and that being His "chosen people" means you are entitled, no, that is not the case. As Jewish scholar Dr. Naomi Wolf, who has read the Bible thoroughly, including in its original Hebrew, said:
"Dr. Naomi Wolf: "Okay, so I was challenged below: "Read the Bible! God gave the land of Israel to the Jewish people." So....I may get crucified for this but I have started to say it -- most recently (terrified, trembling) to warm welcome in a synagogue in LA: Actually if you read Genesis Exodus and Deuteronomy in Hebrew -- as I do -- you see that God did not "give" Israel to the Jews/Israelites. We as Jews are raised with the creed that "God gave us the land of Israel" in Genesis -- and that ethnically 'we are the chosen people." But actually -- and I could not believe my eyes when I saw this, I checked my reading with major scholars and they confirmed it -- actually God's "covenant" in Genesis, Exodus and Deuteronomy with the Jewish people is NOT ABOUT AN ETHNICITY AND NOT ABOUT A CONTRACT. IT IS ABOUT A WAY OF BEHAVING.
Again and again in the "covenant" language He never says: "I will give you, ethnic Israelites, the land of Israel." Rather He says something far more radical - far more subversive -- far more Godlike in my view. He says: IF you visit those imprisoned...act mercifully to the widow and the orphan...welcome the stranger in your midst...tend the sick...do justice and love mercy ....and perform various other tasks...THEN YOU WILL BE MY PEOPLE AND THIS LAND WILL BE YOUR LAND. So "my people" is not ethnic -- it is transactional. We are God's people not by birth but by a way of behaving, that is ethical, kind and just. And we STOP being "God's people" when we are not ethical, kind and just. And ANYONE who is ethical, kind and just is, according to God in Genesis, "God's people." And the "contract" to "give" us Israel is conditional -- we can live in God's land IF we are "God's people" in this way -- just, merciful, compassionate. AND -- it never ever says, it is ONLY your land. Even when passages spell out geographical "boundaries" as if God does such a thing, it never says this is exclusively your land. It never says I will give this land JUST to you. Remember these were homeless nomads who had left slavery in Egypt and were wandering around in the desert; at most these passages say, settle here, but they do not say, settle here exclusively. Indeed again and again it talks about welcoming "zarim" -- translated as "strangers" but can also be translated as "people/tribes who are not you" -- in your midst. Blew my mind, hope it blows yours."- Dr. Naomi Wolf
You can deny/side step it all you like, but the Middle East (Egypt, Iraq, Syria) has been steadily emptied of jews, christians and other religious minorities, The people you're supporting would simply continue the job that they've started. And I don't for a second believe that supporting Hamas is in any way useful The Palestinians will be better off without them, and I hope that Hamas get wiped off the face of the map. They make money from this and they don't care at all about Palestinian people.
They terrorise ALL populations and oppose everything we stand for! And if you support Hamas, you are absolutely supporting an ethno state and Nazis - extermanists!!" Yes, I love how you don't actually engage with the idea!! , but play whataboutery... The fact is that Palestine is an ethno state - PLO advocated for a state based 'national identity' It oppresses everybody out that has a different identity! A different religion in a different way of thinking The same is not true for Israel People are free to have their own religion), You are supporting an ethno state. Which is completely crazy position because you are telling one person they can't do it (Even though it's a country where women can be equals and live their lives as they wish, where gays are not thrown off the rooftops), but instead you are supporting another group of violent baby murdering zealots Who would like nothing better to remove Israel and then move on to Christianity and the West! The Jewish nation has been pushed around for millennia and owned that land for millennia! it the land taken off them by the Ottomans! Who controlled Israel under the millet system for about 400 years. predating that Roman occupation of Judea encountered a Jewish population, not a Palestinian one! The Bible mentions Jews. It doesn't mention Palestinians! I don't think that you've actually been to Israel. I don't think you actually understand what you're talking about. I blame your schooling and childish naivety That everyone will just get along fine. They won't It is such a thing. It is true, evil in Hamas is it.. There will be no two state solution! (Because they are not Michigan and Iowa) I hope Israel takes over Gaza entirely and runs it properly. * Because for sure it won't use all the aid to build tunnels and buy arms and missiles and train child terrorists to chop baby's heads off or stick babies in ovens....
(So that it can no longer be a threat to Israel, the West and the Palestinian population.. Because it is a proxy state for Iran. and everything we stand against. A good part of the Middle East would also love that Iran's proxy state was shut down too.
(*And Hamas won't monetize the suffering of small children being hungry or not being able to go to school or get work so that they can so that they can be billionaires in their flashy condos and live in Jordan with their families away from all the suffering they feed off)
"You can deny/side step it all you like, but the Middle East (Egypt, Iraq, Syria) has been steadily emptied of jews, christians and other religious minorities,"
I think people of religions other than Islam would not want to live under nations governed by Sharia Law. And some Middle Eastern nations, like Iran under Saddam Hussein, were quite secular and accepting of other religions until the U.S. used a terrorist attack mostly engineered by people of Saudi descent as an excuse to go in and invade, which plunged it into civil war where it was taken over by more Sharia Law advocates. The U.S. has no issue with Sharia Law regimes as long as they are friendly to U.S. business interests, like giving them access to their oil and helping establish U.S. currency as the international petro-dollar. They are never against anything "out of principle."
Also, an ethnocentric state like Israel blatantly favors Judaism and anyone who is not is a second class citizen with limits on their ability to get legally married there, to acquire full citizenship, and to have equal voice in parliament.
"he people you're supporting would simply continue the job that they've started."
For the record, I do not support Sharia Law. I support the Palestinians *as people*, just like I support everyone else as people, and I do not agree that bombing them into oblivion and murdering innocents is a way of dealing with the issue. I think establishing a true democratic one-state solution that honors neither Zionism nor Sharia Law, is the solution. This paranoia promoted by Zionists that people who do not agree with them have to be slaughtered and emptied or they will do it to you is ridiculous. If anything, this is inflaming real antisemitism by conflating this type of behavior with the Jewish people, and I think that is partly intentional since it feeds into the Zionist belief that Jews are Perpetual Victims who can therefore justify any type of behavior in their "defense." I support Jews as much as any other group, which is why I oppose any ideology that causes them harm.
"And I don't for a second believe that supporting Hamas is in any way useful The Palestinians will be better off without them, and I hope that Hamas get wiped off the face of the map. They make money from this and they don't care at all about Palestinian people."
You have yet to see me support Hamas, so this assumption falls flat. I do think Palestinians would be better off without Hamas, but I also think Israel would be better off without Zionism and the IDF. Israel is also a useful money-laundering tool for the U.S. war-profiteering machine. Any ethnocentric belief system, and policies based on it, are about achieving and maintaining power over others.
"hey terrorise ALL populations and oppose everything we stand for!"
What Zionists stand for is Zionism, not democracy. I see the Israeli state doing as much terrorizing in the "name" of Jewish people than anyone else in the Middle East. That is why so many Western nations are now turning on it. And they only supported it in the first place due to pressure from the U.S. and the U.K. But things have gotten too extreme for that to work anymore. The U.S. and Israel are among the biggest bullies in the world. And that is true whether their war-mongering is done in the name of Americanism or Zionism. It's all about money in the end.
"es, I love how you don't actually engage with the idea!! , but play whataboutery... The fact is that Palestine is an ethno state - PLO advocated for a state based 'national identity' It oppresses everybody out that has a different identity! A different religion in a different way of thinking The same is not true for Israel People are free to have their own religion), You are supporting an ethno state."
I am not supporting an ethno state because I do not support Sharia Law, nor do I support a Palestinian state, i.e., the "two-state solution." Instead, I support people living under a democratic system that insists all religious beliefs are personal matters and not written into law. And no, Israel does not respect all religions equally, nor ethnicities. I am Italian by ethnicity, meaning I cannot automatically be a citizen of Israel as Jewish people anywhere in the world are. I am also Wiccan by religion, meaning I could not legally get married to someone of Jewish descent in Israel. Meaning, no equal rights.
"Which is completely crazy position because you are telling one person they can't do it (Even though it's a country where women can be equals and live their lives as they wish, where gays are not thrown off the rooftops),"
Gays thrown off rooftops?! Um, gay people cannot get married in Israel. And again, I do not support Sharia Law. That is a constant and obsessive straw man you keep sticking to. The fact that I do not want Palestinian people slaughtered and exiled from their land does not mean that I support Sharia Law. It's ridiculous to suggest that and no one but Zionists would read my words that way. Just as they believe that opposition to Zionism and Israeli genocide automatically means support for Sharia Law and antisemitism.
"The Jewish nation has been pushed around for millennia and owned that land for millennia! it the land taken off them by the Ottomans! Who controlled Israel under the millet system for about 400 years. predating that Roman occupation of Judea encountered a Jewish population, not a Palestinian one!"
First off, no group of people has an inherent right to an ethnostate that benefits them alone, or predominantly so. That causes no end of problems for the world. Secondly, many brown people in that region were Jewish in the past, and the Bible is not entirely historically accurate. It should not be read as a reliable history book. And it is also frequently misinterpreted. People of Palestinian descent lived in that region and that land for ages. The U.K. would not have had to kick them off the land to establish Israel in 1948 if such was not the case.
" I hope Israel takes over Gaza entirely and runs it properly."
Translation: "I hope the Zionist state I support either annihilates all Palestinian people in Gaza or imposes Zionism on those who remain by beating them into submission by way of guns and bombs, and afterwards, oppressive policies. That will show everyone not to mess with Jews or deny their supremacy! Or, in actuality, deny the right of Zionists to rule by claiming to be supporting the Jewish people."
That doesn't sound very democratic, or even sane, NC. In fact, it sounds like outright terrorism and totally based on ideas of Jewish supremacy. Which is why I welcome all debates with Zionists like this one so everyone can see what the ideology is all about and what its goals are. And to also illustrate why everyone in the world are now turning on Zionism and are no longer giving it free rein out of being hit by emotionally manipulative straw man accusations of being antisemitic or pro-Sharia Law. This is what it's all about.
"Because for sure it won't use all the aid to build tunnels and buy arms and missiles and train child terrorists to chop baby's heads off or stick babies in ovens...."
All paranoid nonsense that has no evidence to back it up.
"(So that it can no longer be a threat to Israel,"
Meaning, not a threat to Zionism and its hegemony.
"the West"
The biggest threat to the West is the U..S. and its war-profiteering machine. To which Israel is an integral component thereof.
"and the Palestinian population.."
I see the Israeli military and Zionist ideology being the biggest threat to the Palestinian population, not Hamas. Hamas would have no fuel to exist if not for decades of Israeli oppression that does not allow the Palestinian people to peacefully protest their situation without being shot at or arrested or beaten by IDF soldiers.
"Because it is a proxy state for Iran."
Oh, please, NC. That's yet another attempt to promote war on Iran to help profit the U.S. war machine. If anything, Israel is a proxy state for the latter, using "defense of the Jewish people" and "Democracy" as virtue shields. A narrative that falls more and more apart with every single lunatic military action taken by the Israeli state.
"and everything we stand against."
Again, meaning anything that is not friendly to Zionism.
"A good part of the Middle East would also love that Iran's proxy state was shut down too."
Because the Middle East just loves Israel and its Zionists doctrine, correct?
"(*And Hamas won't monetize the suffering of small children being hungry or not being able to go to school or get work"
And it's not the fault of the Israeli government for setting the policies to starve those kids by denying relief aid and even shooting at relief workers not affiliated with them trying to get in? Right.
"so that they can so that they can be billionaires in their flashy condos and live in Jordan with their families away from all the suffering they feed off)"
Um, NC, it's the billionaire Zionist real estate brokers who are trying to option off land in Gaza for profit once they drive out all Palestinians. I guess you are pretending not to have heard about the recent embarrassing debacle by holding these sales in the U.S.:
And allow me to remind you that AIPAC controls *billions* of dollars and buys politicians and celebrities with impunity. Yet you accuse Hamas of being fixated on profit over people? That *they* control billions of dollars? That they are willing to sacrifice the lives of innocent Palestinians to make money? Classic case of projection, my friend.
Yes, I would agree with you in a sane world. I'd be nice, but you're not going to get that solution. This is impossible
" I think establishing a true democratic one-state solution that honors neither Zionism nor Sharia Law, is the solution. " What you're talking about is idealism. It's not going to work.Islamic countries don't work because of the setup that they have, because Islam becomes the first rule over and above democracy. over and above human rights! Iraq was never secular. The Middle East does not do secular. It does not do freedom of speech. It does not do freedom of religion, not well. None of those countries have women as equal to men again. Your support. the wrong side.
"Yes, I would agree with you in a sane world. I'd be nice, but you're not going to get that solution. This is impossible"
It can be a sane world, NC, if we fought together to make it a sane world. Resigning ourselves to things not being a sane world is just an excuse to justify brutality based on competing factions of ethno-centric or theological-centric ideologies, the fact that this is ultimately driven by the war-profiteering machine and the pursuit of profit in general, continued support of a global system based on this, and then demanding that civilians & politicians alike take sides with one or the other -- with the side chosen invariably being based on which identity group you happen to belong to or which appeals to you more emotionally.
The "it sucks, but there is no alternative" justification to "stay the course" on a destructive, counterproductive, human rights-unfriendly policies and ideologies only guarantees continued and escalating catastrophe on a global scale for *everyone* on the planet, not just one particular group, and it's pure madness for us to resign ourselves to this. There will be no "winner" in this -- save for those few on any given "side" making a profit off it, and only then for as long as someone doesn't start deploying the nukes.
In other words, madness. We can collectively forge a better path if we stop leaving things to be controlled by a handful of billionaires across the globe -- be they from the U.S., the U.K., Israel, Saudi Arabia, or Timbuktu -- and stifle dark emotional impulses on our end and take charge ourselves as a united international people.
It will only continue to be an insane world for as long as 99% of us resign ourselves to it and continue getting thrills out of seeing bombs dropped on people we dislike, and insisting that "our" demographic deserves more than another demographic. And if we stay this course, there eventually no longer be a habitable world at all. Please think about this.
"What you're talking about is idealism."
What I am talking about is *realism* and a belief in a better world rather than being a cheerleader for insanity and brutality based on the "there is no other alternative" narrative.
"It's not going to work.Islamic countries don't work because of the setup that they have, because Islam becomes the first rule over and above democracy. over and above human rights! Iraq was never secular."
So, we need to bomb them out of existence and kill, maim, or displace billions of innocent people? That's funny, NC, but I don't see Zionism being any less insane, and in fact, I currently see it launching more mayhem than any Islamic nation. I don't see a nation with policies based on Judaism and Zionism being any less secular or any less brutal on human rights issues.
And this is NOT defending Sharia Law or Islam. It's opposition to any type of ethnocentric doctrine or any form of theocracy. We can find a better and more democratic way to eliminate theocracies or ethnocentrist states -- by simply letting all people live together in equality with equal rights and establish a democratic, secular system that respects no one ethnic group, race, or religion above any other. I live in the USA, and I see Muslims, Jews, Christians, and Pagans living together without hatred and tolerating each others' cultural and religious differences. In other words, we keep these matters on a personal level and do not enshrine them into law. Identity politics of any sort -- to which Zionism is one such example -- compromises this.
Zionists like yourself are not trying to achieve this type of peace and secular democracy. You are fighting in favor of one particular type of ethnocentrism and theocratic doctrine by insisting others are "worse." This type of antagonism bodes ill for everyone who is not a Zionist or practitioner of Judaism, and it incites acts of retaliatory violence against Jewish people because the vicious and oppressive acts required to sustain it are *connected* to the Jewish people, despite many of them rejecting Zionism out of principle.
Also, many people are making a lot of money supporting Zionism. Few are making money opposing it.
"The Middle East does not do secular. It does not do freedom of speech."
I do not see Zionism as being remotely secular for insisting one group is respected and catered to above all others. And you most certainly do not do free speech if your lobby group pressures the U.S. government into passing laws prohibiting criticism of Zionism & Israel and attempting to ban TikTok because it cannot be controlled enough to cease having users who protest the Zionist narrative.
"It does not do freedom of religion, not well."
A Zionists system that prohibits and restricts marriage on the basis of religion is not doing freedom of religion either.
"None of those countries have women as equal to men again."
Being against that type of inequality does not have to equal bombing people we disagree with. It means leading by example. Showing that you allow feminists and gay people to help perpetuate capitalist control over the world and operate drones that drop bombs on hapless civilians is not doing the cause of civil rights very good. It comes off as just another form of identity-pandering.
"Your support. the wrong side."
These are the sides I support:
The working class over the capitalist class.
Democratic solutions over war.
Egalitarianism over any form of ethnocentrism, identity politics, or theocracy.
Zionism clearly violates every principle I stand for, as does the brutal actions of Israel. None of that translates into support for Sharia Law or Islam over and above Judaism. None of that equates to support of Palestinians over Jews.
The side I take is the sane, realistic, humanistic, and democratic one. And that includes opposition to ideologies or excuses to keep fostering an insane world based on profit over people and brutality over democracy.
That is a matter of opinion and it would be a straw man to say that people have resigned themselves to anything, or that they get thrills out of seeing bombs dropped on people. The. fact is that war is sometimes necessary, as it was with the Nazis it is so with Hamas (And Hamas, one hundred per cent pulls its population into this)
I didn't see any one jumping up and down in the time of the 2nd World War, saying, oh, what a shame we're carpet bombing Dresden - Because they understood the fact that sometimes war is necessary to get rid of a greater evil . It was done because it needed to be - And the very big difference here is that people weren't calling home on their cell phones going, hey, mum, I killed eight of them Unlike Hamas. And I don't see Israel doing the same! In fact, there was quite a revealing video a few days showing the reactions of Israelis with this war and how sad they feel versus people from Arabic countries who celebrate by giving sweets... You have a stick in the mud against the West (Which is by far the greatest place to live in this planet!) and the stick in the mud against seeing the situation for what it is And no amount of good faith from an outside culture is going to change one ounce of it! - Because here is cultures against cultures - your values are different from theirs. Their have been plenty of nations that have made that mistake before. Siege of Van in 1915
The situation with needs to end - And if it means war, so be it. All Hamas has to do is to let the prisoners go Instead, they are using their own population to fund themselves into being billionaires..
"That is a matter of opinion and it would be a straw man to say that people have resigned themselves to anything,"
It's not a straw man to say you resigned yourself to the world being an insane place if you come up with excuses to keep staying that course and think it's "too idealistic" to work together to seek a better path.
"or that they get thrills out of seeing bombs dropped on people."
Then demand a ceasefire and a more peaceful, democratic resolution than insisting that the bombing continues.
"he. fact is that war is sometimes necessary,"
Especially if there is money to be made and conquest of land/resources to be had, right? (Gaza is rich in oil and real estate potential, btw. Did you know that? The U.S. and Israeli governments do.)
"as it was with the Nazis it is so with Hamas (And Hamas, one hundred per cent pulls its population into this)"
So the Nazi government would have justified slaughtering all the German citizens much as you think Hamas justifies slaughtering the Palestinian civilians? How would you like it, NC, if I suggested that "this is war!" hence the actions of the Israeli government and the IDF justified slaughtering the entirety of the Jewish civilian population? And I also justified that by pointing out how many of those citizens agree with the slaughter in Gaza, as do you? Well, I DO NOT think that, I do not want to see any civilian hurt regardless of where they live, or what their ethnicity or religion is, or what their ruling government is like. That should tell you something huge about the difference between those of us who oppose war and ethnocentric ideologies and those who support the "necessity" of either.
Hamas would not exist if not for the actions of the IDF over the course of decades. Consider what an end to warfare and oppression against the Palestinians might accomplish. Slaughtering them just recruits more people for orgs like Hamas and turns Israel into a pariah in front of the entire world.
"I didn't see any one jumping up and down in the time of the 2nd World War, saying, oh, what a shame we're carpet bombing Dresden - Because they understood the fact that sometimes war is necessary to get rid of a greater evil ."
The bombing of Dresden and dropping atomic bombs on Hiroshima & Nagasaki during WWII Is something we deeply regret, was likely not necessary to have ended the war, and is something we never want to see any government find excuses to do ever again. Zionism is as great an evil as any other ethnocentrist ideology, and Israel proves that every day of the year. Especially when you argue that it makes actions like this "necessary" and it causes some people to think some forms of ethnocentric ideologies are morally superior to others. That was the crux of both the Nazi and Imperial Japanese ideologies during the decade leading up to WWII and throughout that war.
"It was done because it needed to be"
Mmmhmm. Keep justifying war and slaughter of innocents, and talking about moral supremacy to justify that. Thank you for continuing to prove my point in this exchange.
"And the very big difference here is that people weren't calling home on their cell phones going, hey, mum, I killed eight of them Unlike Hamas."
Where do you get this info from? The Israeli news agencies and the U.S. government leaking it to mainstream news sources? Like all the other tidbits that have been disproven or at least unproven? This is called war propaganda, to dehumanize "the enemy."
"In fact, there was quite a revealing video a few days showing the reactions of Israelis with this war and how sad they feel versus people from Arabic countries who celebrate by giving sweets..."
You mean like those videos of Israeli officials and soldiers and citizens referring to the people of Gaza as animals and how they deserve this?
"You have a stick in the mud against the West (Which is by far the greatest place to live in this planet!)"
Not nearly as good as it should be considering all the censorship now going down, the level of impoverished people compared to what there should be in nations so advanced, which is technology and resources they take from other nations in the world and do not share with them. You think it's the best place in the world to live because it censors what you want them to and you see it as wreaking havoc on nations you think it should. The entire world should be a great place to live with modern technology, and it would be if only the entire global population socially owned all of it. The West, bullied by the U.S. and the U.K., control an economically-motivated war machine that crushes the rest of the world, and Israel is one of its chief puppets.
"and the stick in the mud against seeing the situation for what it is"
A capitalist system that profits off of war and provides privilege to a few at the expense of the many. At a point in human history where technology has progressed to the point that we can now create an abundance for all if only we all collectively owned these resources. Control of resources by the few and the lucrative nature of weapons production and war under capitalism is the reality, my friend. So yes, I have a "stick in the mud" against that.
"And no amount of good faith from an outside culture is going to change one ounce of it! -"
Certainly not from any culture that is pro-capitalism, pro-war, and pro-Zionism of any other type of pro-ethnocentrism.
"Because here is cultures against cultures - your values are different from theirs."
We could all live in peace despite differences in cultural belief if we all collectively owned the resources and provided an equal amount to everyone.; At our core, all humans have a mutual interest in access to food, clean water, a clean environment, good health care, good educational opportunities, a guarantee of work we are individually suited for, and good material compensation so we can live in comfort. When you give everyone that, we can tolerate our differences, and keep our religious and cultural beliefs on a personal level and out of official government policy.
When you deny some groups of people the above, with only a handful of people from each group having the lion's share of that bounty, then you end up with the type of world we have now -- where war, censorship, hatred and ethnocentrism as government policy are rationalized and the order of the day. If you make excuses to continue like this, and continue to think this is a just system as long as groups of people you most emotionally identify with have what you perceive to the most access to these resources -- and are not concerned that only a few actually have enough to live in true comfort & control everything -- then you are indeed supporting an insane global regime that needs to go down.
"Their have been plenty of nations that have made that mistake before. Siege of Van in 1915"
But you do not think war and profiteering based on war is a mistake. It's "sometimes necessary" in your eyes.
"The situation with needs to end"
There we agree. We just do not concur on the solution. You think continued slaughter of innocents in this case is somehow going to end the problem. I think history, both ancient and recent, shows us that is not the solution, but the problem itself.
"And if it means war, so be it."
There are plenty of Zionists cheering you on right now. Not to mention executives on the boards of Raytheon, Lockheed Martin, and Boeing.
"ll Hamas has to do is to let the prisoners go"
We all know that has nothing to do with it. The Israeli government wants the land and its resources, and it won't stop until all Palestinians in that area are driven out or killed. And every other nation in the region continues to kowtow to its demands.
" Instead, they are using their own population to fund themselves into being billionaires.."
Mmhmmm, Hamas leaders show so many signs of being billionaires compared to the Israeli real estate brokers now trying to get capitalists across the world to invest in condos to be built in Gaza once the Palestinians are completely driven out, not to mention take advantage of its petroleum resources. Not to mention the billionaires running the war machine, including those in their pockets like Joe Biden. And not to mention AIPAC itself, which has more money than God and pays off politicians and celebrities to cheerlead for Israel and continue sending its government vast amounts of weapons and many other resources that it does not give to its own civilian population. Yes, it's surely Hamas leaders who are rolling in the dough. Yet they are not the ones trying to build condos for themselves there. This is not to defend them, but to make a point that renders your own point ironic and non-sensical. We all know who the real billionaires benefiting from this are.
.....So you think Palestinians would actually marry Jews? Play it all back on yourself and you'll find what an absolute lie you're supporting. And really don't confuse Hamas as being something that's actually legitimate. They are terrorists! They terrorise the population and oppose everything we stand for! And if you support Hamas, you are absolutely supporting an ethno state and Nazis - extermanists!! if you support Hamas and the absolution of Israel, then you are completing the job because all of the Middle East has completely killed off Jews. They are no Jews in Egypt. Iraq, Syria, etc. You're on the wrong side of this! Israel is the only place in the Middle East that has a democracy and equal rights for women. It has a democracy, the Middle East has a very big problem with democracy and freedom of speech!
I can tell you've not gone there. And I can tell you don't know that! the Bible has the names of Judea, Jerusalem. While the term "Palestine" was used in the 5th century BCE, the Jewish claim to the land is based on a history in the region dating back to the 1st century BCE and earlier!
5th century BCE: The term "Palestine" used by Greek historian Herodotus
1st century BCE and earlier: Jewish presence in the region established, yearning for return and sovereignty present in religious texts and tradition
1st-2nd century CE: Jewish-Roman wars lead to displacement of many Jews, but the yearning for return remains strong
7th century CE: Arab conquest, Islam introduced, Jewish presence continues but faces challenges under new rule
16th century - 1917: Ottoman rule, Jewish presence continues, with ongoing yearning for return and self-determination
19th century: Rise of Zionism, Jewish immigration increases, driven by the desire to return to their ancestral homeland
1917: Balfour Declaration supports establishment of Jewish homeland
1948: State of Israel established, mass immigration of Jews, fulfilling the long-held dream of returning to their homeland
"....So you think Palestinians would actually marry Jews?"
I think a Palestinian would definitely want to marry a Jew if they happened to meet one and the two fell in love with each other. I do not agree that mutual hatred between the two ethnic groups should be encouraged, because that is something both demographics will have to get past once a true egalitarian democracy is established in that land and both Zionism and Sharia Law are not legally recognized as law.
"Play it all back on yourself and you'll find what an absolute lie you're supporting. And really don't confuse Hamas as being something that's actually legitimate. They are terrorists!"
And what do you call the behavior of the IDF towards the Palestinians for many decades now? Hamas is a reaction to that. I do not want to see any innocents killed, but that is what happens when one group is provoked and oppressed and they are given no peaceful recourse. I want to see a world where both the IDF and Hamas are gone.
"They terrorise the population and oppose everything we stand for! And if you support Hamas, you are absolutely supporting an ethno state and Nazis - extermanists!!"
And Zionism is not extremist? And I oppose Zionism as much as I oppose Sharia Law. I would never respect a government that put either form of identity politics or theocratic tenets or ethnocentricism into law and government policy.
"if you support Hamas and the absolution of Israel, then you are completing the job because all of the Middle East has completely killed off Jews."
Opposition to Zionism is not hatred for Jewish people -- it is opposition to ethnocentric bias that, in this case, translates into a doctrine of Jewish supremacy based on perpetual victlmhood, the very definition of identity politics. Zionism does not "protect" Jewish people, it turns them into the same type of monsters that once terrorized them and provokes actual antisemitism against them. Many Jewish people also oppose Zionism, as they believe it is taking the very *wrong* lessons from the Holocaust.
"You're on the wrong side of this! Israel is the only place in the Middle East that has a democracy and equal rights for women. It has a democracy, the Middle East has a very big problem with democracy and freedom of speech! "
Zionists have an *extreme* problem with free speech, considering how on behalf of Israel the Zionists under the financial control of AIPAC have actually written into law a ban on criticizing Zionism and sent the police to beat up peaceful protesters against the slaughter in Gaza. And as Max Blumenthal, Aaron Mate, and other Jewish journalists who spent a lot of time in both Israel and Gaza noted in those videos I shared, Israel is most assuredly not a democracy. Saying it's okay to ban marriage between Jews and Palestinians because "they wouldn't want to marry each other anyway" is missing the point and rationalizing a lack of democracy, i.e., freedom of choice, right there.
"I can tell you've not gone there."
Since I am not of Jewish ethnicity or religion, I couldn't just travel there like any Jewish person in the world could. Lack of democracy right there. And as I pointed out in those videos, many people of Jewish descent who *have* been there make it clear it is not a democracy. Zionists claim otherwise because it favors their ideology. That is not democracy, that is ethnocentrism.
"And I can tell you don't know that! the Bible has the names of Judea, Jerusalem. While the term "Palestine" was used in the 5th century BCE, the Jewish claim to the land is based on a history in the region dating back to the 1st century BCE and earlier!"
It doesn't matter what the Bible says, because any law respecting that would automatically be a theocracy, *not* a democracy. And Palestinians have been there for ages too, at least as long. I do not agree that Jewish people should be kicked off the land. I believe that Zionists should not have the right to kick *other* people off the land, and should share it with others as equals. I do not support any system based on Zionism or Sharia Law, or a Christian theocracy etc.
"1948: State of Israel established, mass immigration of Jews, fulfilling the long-held dream of returning to their homeland"
No group of people have the right to fulfill a dream if it constitutes another group's nightmare. That is, no group should have the right to gain at the expense of another. Every demographic in the world needs to learn to share land and resources equitably, not "claim" it for their group alone due to some ancient theocratic doctrine that other religions will not recognize. There are no "chosen" people in a universal sense, that is an extreme form of chauvinism. And Judaism is also not equivalent to Zionism, and many deeply religious Jews rightfully oppose it for that reason. Israel needs to be replaced with a true secular democracy where Jews, Palestinians, and anyone else willing to live there peacefully allowed to do so, and where Zionism, Sharia Law, etc are not recognized as legal policy.
As for the allegation that the Bible says that God "gave" that land to the Jewish people, and that being His "chosen people" means you are entitled, no, that is not the case. As Jewish scholar Dr. Naomi Wolf, who has read the Bible thoroughly, including in its original Hebrew, said:
"Dr. Naomi Wolf: "Okay, so I was challenged below: "Read the Bible! God gave the land of Israel to the Jewish people." So....I may get crucified for this but I have started to say it -- most recently (terrified, trembling) to warm welcome in a synagogue in LA: Actually if you read Genesis Exodus and Deuteronomy in Hebrew -- as I do -- you see that God did not "give" Israel to the Jews/Israelites. We as Jews are raised with the creed that "God gave us the land of Israel" in Genesis -- and that ethnically 'we are the chosen people." But actually -- and I could not believe my eyes when I saw this, I checked my reading with major scholars and they confirmed it -- actually God's "covenant" in Genesis, Exodus and Deuteronomy with the Jewish people is NOT ABOUT AN ETHNICITY AND NOT ABOUT A CONTRACT. IT IS ABOUT A WAY OF BEHAVING.
Again and again in the "covenant" language He never says: "I will give you, ethnic Israelites, the land of Israel." Rather He says something far more radical - far more subversive -- far more Godlike in my view. He says: IF you visit those imprisoned...act mercifully to the widow and the orphan...welcome the stranger in your midst...tend the sick...do justice and love mercy ....and perform various other tasks...THEN YOU WILL BE MY PEOPLE AND THIS LAND WILL BE YOUR LAND. So "my people" is not ethnic -- it is transactional. We are God's people not by birth but by a way of behaving, that is ethical, kind and just. And we STOP being "God's people" when we are not ethical, kind and just. And ANYONE who is ethical, kind and just is, according to God in Genesis, "God's people." And the "contract" to "give" us Israel is conditional -- we can live in God's land IF we are "God's people" in this way -- just, merciful, compassionate. AND -- it never ever says, it is ONLY your land. Even when passages spell out geographical "boundaries" as if God does such a thing, it never says this is exclusively your land. It never says I will give this land JUST to you. Remember these were homeless nomads who had left slavery in Egypt and were wandering around in the desert; at most these passages say, settle here, but they do not say, settle here exclusively. Indeed again and again it talks about welcoming "zarim" -- translated as "strangers" but can also be translated as "people/tribes who are not you" -- in your midst. Blew my mind, hope it blows yours."- Dr. Naomi Wolf
You can deny/side step it all you like, but the Middle East (Egypt, Iraq, Syria) has been steadily emptied of jews, christians and other religious minorities, The people you're supporting would simply continue the job that they've started. And I don't for a second believe that supporting Hamas is in any way useful The Palestinians will be better off without them, and I hope that Hamas get wiped off the face of the map. They make money from this and they don't care at all about Palestinian people.
They terrorise ALL populations and oppose everything we stand for! And if you support Hamas, you are absolutely supporting an ethno state and Nazis - extermanists!!" Yes, I love how you don't actually engage with the idea!! , but play whataboutery... The fact is that Palestine is an ethno state - PLO advocated for a state based 'national identity' It oppresses everybody out that has a different identity! A different religion in a different way of thinking The same is not true for Israel People are free to have their own religion), You are supporting an ethno state. Which is completely crazy position because you are telling one person they can't do it (Even though it's a country where women can be equals and live their lives as they wish, where gays are not thrown off the rooftops), but instead you are supporting another group of violent baby murdering zealots Who would like nothing better to remove Israel and then move on to Christianity and the West! The Jewish nation has been pushed around for millennia and owned that land for millennia! it the land taken off them by the Ottomans! Who controlled Israel under the millet system for about 400 years. predating that Roman occupation of Judea encountered a Jewish population, not a Palestinian one! The Bible mentions Jews. It doesn't mention Palestinians! I don't think that you've actually been to Israel. I don't think you actually understand what you're talking about. I blame your schooling and childish naivety That everyone will just get along fine. They won't It is such a thing. It is true, evil in Hamas is it.. There will be no two state solution! (Because they are not Michigan and Iowa) I hope Israel takes over Gaza entirely and runs it properly. * Because for sure it won't use all the aid to build tunnels and buy arms and missiles and train child terrorists to chop baby's heads off or stick babies in ovens....
(So that it can no longer be a threat to Israel, the West and the Palestinian population.. Because it is a proxy state for Iran. and everything we stand against. A good part of the Middle East would also love that Iran's proxy state was shut down too.
(*And Hamas won't monetize the suffering of small children being hungry or not being able to go to school or get work so that they can so that they can be billionaires in their flashy condos and live in Jordan with their families away from all the suffering they feed off)
"You can deny/side step it all you like, but the Middle East (Egypt, Iraq, Syria) has been steadily emptied of jews, christians and other religious minorities,"
I think people of religions other than Islam would not want to live under nations governed by Sharia Law. And some Middle Eastern nations, like Iran under Saddam Hussein, were quite secular and accepting of other religions until the U.S. used a terrorist attack mostly engineered by people of Saudi descent as an excuse to go in and invade, which plunged it into civil war where it was taken over by more Sharia Law advocates. The U.S. has no issue with Sharia Law regimes as long as they are friendly to U.S. business interests, like giving them access to their oil and helping establish U.S. currency as the international petro-dollar. They are never against anything "out of principle."
Also, an ethnocentric state like Israel blatantly favors Judaism and anyone who is not is a second class citizen with limits on their ability to get legally married there, to acquire full citizenship, and to have equal voice in parliament.
"he people you're supporting would simply continue the job that they've started."
For the record, I do not support Sharia Law. I support the Palestinians *as people*, just like I support everyone else as people, and I do not agree that bombing them into oblivion and murdering innocents is a way of dealing with the issue. I think establishing a true democratic one-state solution that honors neither Zionism nor Sharia Law, is the solution. This paranoia promoted by Zionists that people who do not agree with them have to be slaughtered and emptied or they will do it to you is ridiculous. If anything, this is inflaming real antisemitism by conflating this type of behavior with the Jewish people, and I think that is partly intentional since it feeds into the Zionist belief that Jews are Perpetual Victims who can therefore justify any type of behavior in their "defense." I support Jews as much as any other group, which is why I oppose any ideology that causes them harm.
"And I don't for a second believe that supporting Hamas is in any way useful The Palestinians will be better off without them, and I hope that Hamas get wiped off the face of the map. They make money from this and they don't care at all about Palestinian people."
You have yet to see me support Hamas, so this assumption falls flat. I do think Palestinians would be better off without Hamas, but I also think Israel would be better off without Zionism and the IDF. Israel is also a useful money-laundering tool for the U.S. war-profiteering machine. Any ethnocentric belief system, and policies based on it, are about achieving and maintaining power over others.
"hey terrorise ALL populations and oppose everything we stand for!"
What Zionists stand for is Zionism, not democracy. I see the Israeli state doing as much terrorizing in the "name" of Jewish people than anyone else in the Middle East. That is why so many Western nations are now turning on it. And they only supported it in the first place due to pressure from the U.S. and the U.K. But things have gotten too extreme for that to work anymore. The U.S. and Israel are among the biggest bullies in the world. And that is true whether their war-mongering is done in the name of Americanism or Zionism. It's all about money in the end.
"es, I love how you don't actually engage with the idea!! , but play whataboutery... The fact is that Palestine is an ethno state - PLO advocated for a state based 'national identity' It oppresses everybody out that has a different identity! A different religion in a different way of thinking The same is not true for Israel People are free to have their own religion), You are supporting an ethno state."
I am not supporting an ethno state because I do not support Sharia Law, nor do I support a Palestinian state, i.e., the "two-state solution." Instead, I support people living under a democratic system that insists all religious beliefs are personal matters and not written into law. And no, Israel does not respect all religions equally, nor ethnicities. I am Italian by ethnicity, meaning I cannot automatically be a citizen of Israel as Jewish people anywhere in the world are. I am also Wiccan by religion, meaning I could not legally get married to someone of Jewish descent in Israel. Meaning, no equal rights.
"Which is completely crazy position because you are telling one person they can't do it (Even though it's a country where women can be equals and live their lives as they wish, where gays are not thrown off the rooftops),"
Gays thrown off rooftops?! Um, gay people cannot get married in Israel. And again, I do not support Sharia Law. That is a constant and obsessive straw man you keep sticking to. The fact that I do not want Palestinian people slaughtered and exiled from their land does not mean that I support Sharia Law. It's ridiculous to suggest that and no one but Zionists would read my words that way. Just as they believe that opposition to Zionism and Israeli genocide automatically means support for Sharia Law and antisemitism.
"The Jewish nation has been pushed around for millennia and owned that land for millennia! it the land taken off them by the Ottomans! Who controlled Israel under the millet system for about 400 years. predating that Roman occupation of Judea encountered a Jewish population, not a Palestinian one!"
First off, no group of people has an inherent right to an ethnostate that benefits them alone, or predominantly so. That causes no end of problems for the world. Secondly, many brown people in that region were Jewish in the past, and the Bible is not entirely historically accurate. It should not be read as a reliable history book. And it is also frequently misinterpreted. People of Palestinian descent lived in that region and that land for ages. The U.K. would not have had to kick them off the land to establish Israel in 1948 if such was not the case.
" I hope Israel takes over Gaza entirely and runs it properly."
Translation: "I hope the Zionist state I support either annihilates all Palestinian people in Gaza or imposes Zionism on those who remain by beating them into submission by way of guns and bombs, and afterwards, oppressive policies. That will show everyone not to mess with Jews or deny their supremacy! Or, in actuality, deny the right of Zionists to rule by claiming to be supporting the Jewish people."
That doesn't sound very democratic, or even sane, NC. In fact, it sounds like outright terrorism and totally based on ideas of Jewish supremacy. Which is why I welcome all debates with Zionists like this one so everyone can see what the ideology is all about and what its goals are. And to also illustrate why everyone in the world are now turning on Zionism and are no longer giving it free rein out of being hit by emotionally manipulative straw man accusations of being antisemitic or pro-Sharia Law. This is what it's all about.
"Because for sure it won't use all the aid to build tunnels and buy arms and missiles and train child terrorists to chop baby's heads off or stick babies in ovens...."
All paranoid nonsense that has no evidence to back it up.
"(So that it can no longer be a threat to Israel,"
Meaning, not a threat to Zionism and its hegemony.
"the West"
The biggest threat to the West is the U..S. and its war-profiteering machine. To which Israel is an integral component thereof.
"and the Palestinian population.."
I see the Israeli military and Zionist ideology being the biggest threat to the Palestinian population, not Hamas. Hamas would have no fuel to exist if not for decades of Israeli oppression that does not allow the Palestinian people to peacefully protest their situation without being shot at or arrested or beaten by IDF soldiers.
"Because it is a proxy state for Iran."
Oh, please, NC. That's yet another attempt to promote war on Iran to help profit the U.S. war machine. If anything, Israel is a proxy state for the latter, using "defense of the Jewish people" and "Democracy" as virtue shields. A narrative that falls more and more apart with every single lunatic military action taken by the Israeli state.
"and everything we stand against."
Again, meaning anything that is not friendly to Zionism.
"A good part of the Middle East would also love that Iran's proxy state was shut down too."
Because the Middle East just loves Israel and its Zionists doctrine, correct?
"(*And Hamas won't monetize the suffering of small children being hungry or not being able to go to school or get work"
And it's not the fault of the Israeli government for setting the policies to starve those kids by denying relief aid and even shooting at relief workers not affiliated with them trying to get in? Right.
"so that they can so that they can be billionaires in their flashy condos and live in Jordan with their families away from all the suffering they feed off)"
Um, NC, it's the billionaire Zionist real estate brokers who are trying to option off land in Gaza for profit once they drive out all Palestinians. I guess you are pretending not to have heard about the recent embarrassing debacle by holding these sales in the U.S.:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5glhtMQhxU
And allow me to remind you that AIPAC controls *billions* of dollars and buys politicians and celebrities with impunity. Yet you accuse Hamas of being fixated on profit over people? That *they* control billions of dollars? That they are willing to sacrifice the lives of innocent Palestinians to make money? Classic case of projection, my friend.
Yes, I would agree with you in a sane world. I'd be nice, but you're not going to get that solution. This is impossible
" I think establishing a true democratic one-state solution that honors neither Zionism nor Sharia Law, is the solution. " What you're talking about is idealism. It's not going to work.Islamic countries don't work because of the setup that they have, because Islam becomes the first rule over and above democracy. over and above human rights! Iraq was never secular. The Middle East does not do secular. It does not do freedom of speech. It does not do freedom of religion, not well. None of those countries have women as equal to men again. Your support. the wrong side.
"Yes, I would agree with you in a sane world. I'd be nice, but you're not going to get that solution. This is impossible"
It can be a sane world, NC, if we fought together to make it a sane world. Resigning ourselves to things not being a sane world is just an excuse to justify brutality based on competing factions of ethno-centric or theological-centric ideologies, the fact that this is ultimately driven by the war-profiteering machine and the pursuit of profit in general, continued support of a global system based on this, and then demanding that civilians & politicians alike take sides with one or the other -- with the side chosen invariably being based on which identity group you happen to belong to or which appeals to you more emotionally.
The "it sucks, but there is no alternative" justification to "stay the course" on a destructive, counterproductive, human rights-unfriendly policies and ideologies only guarantees continued and escalating catastrophe on a global scale for *everyone* on the planet, not just one particular group, and it's pure madness for us to resign ourselves to this. There will be no "winner" in this -- save for those few on any given "side" making a profit off it, and only then for as long as someone doesn't start deploying the nukes.
In other words, madness. We can collectively forge a better path if we stop leaving things to be controlled by a handful of billionaires across the globe -- be they from the U.S., the U.K., Israel, Saudi Arabia, or Timbuktu -- and stifle dark emotional impulses on our end and take charge ourselves as a united international people.
It will only continue to be an insane world for as long as 99% of us resign ourselves to it and continue getting thrills out of seeing bombs dropped on people we dislike, and insisting that "our" demographic deserves more than another demographic. And if we stay this course, there eventually no longer be a habitable world at all. Please think about this.
"What you're talking about is idealism."
What I am talking about is *realism* and a belief in a better world rather than being a cheerleader for insanity and brutality based on the "there is no other alternative" narrative.
"It's not going to work.Islamic countries don't work because of the setup that they have, because Islam becomes the first rule over and above democracy. over and above human rights! Iraq was never secular."
So, we need to bomb them out of existence and kill, maim, or displace billions of innocent people? That's funny, NC, but I don't see Zionism being any less insane, and in fact, I currently see it launching more mayhem than any Islamic nation. I don't see a nation with policies based on Judaism and Zionism being any less secular or any less brutal on human rights issues.
And this is NOT defending Sharia Law or Islam. It's opposition to any type of ethnocentric doctrine or any form of theocracy. We can find a better and more democratic way to eliminate theocracies or ethnocentrist states -- by simply letting all people live together in equality with equal rights and establish a democratic, secular system that respects no one ethnic group, race, or religion above any other. I live in the USA, and I see Muslims, Jews, Christians, and Pagans living together without hatred and tolerating each others' cultural and religious differences. In other words, we keep these matters on a personal level and do not enshrine them into law. Identity politics of any sort -- to which Zionism is one such example -- compromises this.
Zionists like yourself are not trying to achieve this type of peace and secular democracy. You are fighting in favor of one particular type of ethnocentrism and theocratic doctrine by insisting others are "worse." This type of antagonism bodes ill for everyone who is not a Zionist or practitioner of Judaism, and it incites acts of retaliatory violence against Jewish people because the vicious and oppressive acts required to sustain it are *connected* to the Jewish people, despite many of them rejecting Zionism out of principle.
Also, many people are making a lot of money supporting Zionism. Few are making money opposing it.
"The Middle East does not do secular. It does not do freedom of speech."
I do not see Zionism as being remotely secular for insisting one group is respected and catered to above all others. And you most certainly do not do free speech if your lobby group pressures the U.S. government into passing laws prohibiting criticism of Zionism & Israel and attempting to ban TikTok because it cannot be controlled enough to cease having users who protest the Zionist narrative.
"It does not do freedom of religion, not well."
A Zionists system that prohibits and restricts marriage on the basis of religion is not doing freedom of religion either.
"None of those countries have women as equal to men again."
Being against that type of inequality does not have to equal bombing people we disagree with. It means leading by example. Showing that you allow feminists and gay people to help perpetuate capitalist control over the world and operate drones that drop bombs on hapless civilians is not doing the cause of civil rights very good. It comes off as just another form of identity-pandering.
"Your support. the wrong side."
These are the sides I support:
The working class over the capitalist class.
Democratic solutions over war.
Egalitarianism over any form of ethnocentrism, identity politics, or theocracy.
Zionism clearly violates every principle I stand for, as does the brutal actions of Israel. None of that translates into support for Sharia Law or Islam over and above Judaism. None of that equates to support of Palestinians over Jews.
The side I take is the sane, realistic, humanistic, and democratic one. And that includes opposition to ideologies or excuses to keep fostering an insane world based on profit over people and brutality over democracy.
That is a matter of opinion and it would be a straw man to say that people have resigned themselves to anything, or that they get thrills out of seeing bombs dropped on people. The. fact is that war is sometimes necessary, as it was with the Nazis it is so with Hamas (And Hamas, one hundred per cent pulls its population into this)
I didn't see any one jumping up and down in the time of the 2nd World War, saying, oh, what a shame we're carpet bombing Dresden - Because they understood the fact that sometimes war is necessary to get rid of a greater evil . It was done because it needed to be - And the very big difference here is that people weren't calling home on their cell phones going, hey, mum, I killed eight of them Unlike Hamas. And I don't see Israel doing the same! In fact, there was quite a revealing video a few days showing the reactions of Israelis with this war and how sad they feel versus people from Arabic countries who celebrate by giving sweets... You have a stick in the mud against the West (Which is by far the greatest place to live in this planet!) and the stick in the mud against seeing the situation for what it is And no amount of good faith from an outside culture is going to change one ounce of it! - Because here is cultures against cultures - your values are different from theirs. Their have been plenty of nations that have made that mistake before. Siege of Van in 1915
The situation with needs to end - And if it means war, so be it. All Hamas has to do is to let the prisoners go Instead, they are using their own population to fund themselves into being billionaires..
"That is a matter of opinion and it would be a straw man to say that people have resigned themselves to anything,"
It's not a straw man to say you resigned yourself to the world being an insane place if you come up with excuses to keep staying that course and think it's "too idealistic" to work together to seek a better path.
"or that they get thrills out of seeing bombs dropped on people."
Then demand a ceasefire and a more peaceful, democratic resolution than insisting that the bombing continues.
"he. fact is that war is sometimes necessary,"
Especially if there is money to be made and conquest of land/resources to be had, right? (Gaza is rich in oil and real estate potential, btw. Did you know that? The U.S. and Israeli governments do.)
"as it was with the Nazis it is so with Hamas (And Hamas, one hundred per cent pulls its population into this)"
So the Nazi government would have justified slaughtering all the German citizens much as you think Hamas justifies slaughtering the Palestinian civilians? How would you like it, NC, if I suggested that "this is war!" hence the actions of the Israeli government and the IDF justified slaughtering the entirety of the Jewish civilian population? And I also justified that by pointing out how many of those citizens agree with the slaughter in Gaza, as do you? Well, I DO NOT think that, I do not want to see any civilian hurt regardless of where they live, or what their ethnicity or religion is, or what their ruling government is like. That should tell you something huge about the difference between those of us who oppose war and ethnocentric ideologies and those who support the "necessity" of either.
Hamas would not exist if not for the actions of the IDF over the course of decades. Consider what an end to warfare and oppression against the Palestinians might accomplish. Slaughtering them just recruits more people for orgs like Hamas and turns Israel into a pariah in front of the entire world.
"I didn't see any one jumping up and down in the time of the 2nd World War, saying, oh, what a shame we're carpet bombing Dresden - Because they understood the fact that sometimes war is necessary to get rid of a greater evil ."
The bombing of Dresden and dropping atomic bombs on Hiroshima & Nagasaki during WWII Is something we deeply regret, was likely not necessary to have ended the war, and is something we never want to see any government find excuses to do ever again. Zionism is as great an evil as any other ethnocentrist ideology, and Israel proves that every day of the year. Especially when you argue that it makes actions like this "necessary" and it causes some people to think some forms of ethnocentric ideologies are morally superior to others. That was the crux of both the Nazi and Imperial Japanese ideologies during the decade leading up to WWII and throughout that war.
"It was done because it needed to be"
Mmmhmm. Keep justifying war and slaughter of innocents, and talking about moral supremacy to justify that. Thank you for continuing to prove my point in this exchange.
"And the very big difference here is that people weren't calling home on their cell phones going, hey, mum, I killed eight of them Unlike Hamas."
Where do you get this info from? The Israeli news agencies and the U.S. government leaking it to mainstream news sources? Like all the other tidbits that have been disproven or at least unproven? This is called war propaganda, to dehumanize "the enemy."
"In fact, there was quite a revealing video a few days showing the reactions of Israelis with this war and how sad they feel versus people from Arabic countries who celebrate by giving sweets..."
You mean like those videos of Israeli officials and soldiers and citizens referring to the people of Gaza as animals and how they deserve this?
"You have a stick in the mud against the West (Which is by far the greatest place to live in this planet!)"
Not nearly as good as it should be considering all the censorship now going down, the level of impoverished people compared to what there should be in nations so advanced, which is technology and resources they take from other nations in the world and do not share with them. You think it's the best place in the world to live because it censors what you want them to and you see it as wreaking havoc on nations you think it should. The entire world should be a great place to live with modern technology, and it would be if only the entire global population socially owned all of it. The West, bullied by the U.S. and the U.K., control an economically-motivated war machine that crushes the rest of the world, and Israel is one of its chief puppets.
"and the stick in the mud against seeing the situation for what it is"
A capitalist system that profits off of war and provides privilege to a few at the expense of the many. At a point in human history where technology has progressed to the point that we can now create an abundance for all if only we all collectively owned these resources. Control of resources by the few and the lucrative nature of weapons production and war under capitalism is the reality, my friend. So yes, I have a "stick in the mud" against that.
"And no amount of good faith from an outside culture is going to change one ounce of it! -"
Certainly not from any culture that is pro-capitalism, pro-war, and pro-Zionism of any other type of pro-ethnocentrism.
"Because here is cultures against cultures - your values are different from theirs."
We could all live in peace despite differences in cultural belief if we all collectively owned the resources and provided an equal amount to everyone.; At our core, all humans have a mutual interest in access to food, clean water, a clean environment, good health care, good educational opportunities, a guarantee of work we are individually suited for, and good material compensation so we can live in comfort. When you give everyone that, we can tolerate our differences, and keep our religious and cultural beliefs on a personal level and out of official government policy.
When you deny some groups of people the above, with only a handful of people from each group having the lion's share of that bounty, then you end up with the type of world we have now -- where war, censorship, hatred and ethnocentrism as government policy are rationalized and the order of the day. If you make excuses to continue like this, and continue to think this is a just system as long as groups of people you most emotionally identify with have what you perceive to the most access to these resources -- and are not concerned that only a few actually have enough to live in true comfort & control everything -- then you are indeed supporting an insane global regime that needs to go down.
"Their have been plenty of nations that have made that mistake before. Siege of Van in 1915"
But you do not think war and profiteering based on war is a mistake. It's "sometimes necessary" in your eyes.
"The situation with needs to end"
There we agree. We just do not concur on the solution. You think continued slaughter of innocents in this case is somehow going to end the problem. I think history, both ancient and recent, shows us that is not the solution, but the problem itself.
"And if it means war, so be it."
There are plenty of Zionists cheering you on right now. Not to mention executives on the boards of Raytheon, Lockheed Martin, and Boeing.
"ll Hamas has to do is to let the prisoners go"
We all know that has nothing to do with it. The Israeli government wants the land and its resources, and it won't stop until all Palestinians in that area are driven out or killed. And every other nation in the region continues to kowtow to its demands.
" Instead, they are using their own population to fund themselves into being billionaires.."
Mmhmmm, Hamas leaders show so many signs of being billionaires compared to the Israeli real estate brokers now trying to get capitalists across the world to invest in condos to be built in Gaza once the Palestinians are completely driven out, not to mention take advantage of its petroleum resources. Not to mention the billionaires running the war machine, including those in their pockets like Joe Biden. And not to mention AIPAC itself, which has more money than God and pays off politicians and celebrities to cheerlead for Israel and continue sending its government vast amounts of weapons and many other resources that it does not give to its own civilian population. Yes, it's surely Hamas leaders who are rolling in the dough. Yet they are not the ones trying to build condos for themselves there. This is not to defend them, but to make a point that renders your own point ironic and non-sensical. We all know who the real billionaires benefiting from this are.