"That is a matter of opinion and it would be a straw man to say that people have resigned themselves to anything,"
It's not a straw man to say you resigned yourself to the world being an insane place if you come up with excuses to keep staying that course and think it's "too idealistic" to work together to seek a better path.
"That is a matter of opinion and it would be a straw man to say that people have resigned themselves to anything,"
It's not a straw man to say you resigned yourself to the world being an insane place if you come up with excuses to keep staying that course and think it's "too idealistic" to work together to seek a better path.
"or that they get thrills out of seeing bombs dropped on people."
Then demand a ceasefire and a more peaceful, democratic resolution than insisting that the bombing continues.
"he. fact is that war is sometimes necessary,"
Especially if there is money to be made and conquest of land/resources to be had, right? (Gaza is rich in oil and real estate potential, btw. Did you know that? The U.S. and Israeli governments do.)
"as it was with the Nazis it is so with Hamas (And Hamas, one hundred per cent pulls its population into this)"
So the Nazi government would have justified slaughtering all the German citizens much as you think Hamas justifies slaughtering the Palestinian civilians? How would you like it, NC, if I suggested that "this is war!" hence the actions of the Israeli government and the IDF justified slaughtering the entirety of the Jewish civilian population? And I also justified that by pointing out how many of those citizens agree with the slaughter in Gaza, as do you? Well, I DO NOT think that, I do not want to see any civilian hurt regardless of where they live, or what their ethnicity or religion is, or what their ruling government is like. That should tell you something huge about the difference between those of us who oppose war and ethnocentric ideologies and those who support the "necessity" of either.
Hamas would not exist if not for the actions of the IDF over the course of decades. Consider what an end to warfare and oppression against the Palestinians might accomplish. Slaughtering them just recruits more people for orgs like Hamas and turns Israel into a pariah in front of the entire world.
"I didn't see any one jumping up and down in the time of the 2nd World War, saying, oh, what a shame we're carpet bombing Dresden - Because they understood the fact that sometimes war is necessary to get rid of a greater evil ."
The bombing of Dresden and dropping atomic bombs on Hiroshima & Nagasaki during WWII Is something we deeply regret, was likely not necessary to have ended the war, and is something we never want to see any government find excuses to do ever again. Zionism is as great an evil as any other ethnocentrist ideology, and Israel proves that every day of the year. Especially when you argue that it makes actions like this "necessary" and it causes some people to think some forms of ethnocentric ideologies are morally superior to others. That was the crux of both the Nazi and Imperial Japanese ideologies during the decade leading up to WWII and throughout that war.
"It was done because it needed to be"
Mmmhmm. Keep justifying war and slaughter of innocents, and talking about moral supremacy to justify that. Thank you for continuing to prove my point in this exchange.
"And the very big difference here is that people weren't calling home on their cell phones going, hey, mum, I killed eight of them Unlike Hamas."
Where do you get this info from? The Israeli news agencies and the U.S. government leaking it to mainstream news sources? Like all the other tidbits that have been disproven or at least unproven? This is called war propaganda, to dehumanize "the enemy."
"In fact, there was quite a revealing video a few days showing the reactions of Israelis with this war and how sad they feel versus people from Arabic countries who celebrate by giving sweets..."
You mean like those videos of Israeli officials and soldiers and citizens referring to the people of Gaza as animals and how they deserve this?
"You have a stick in the mud against the West (Which is by far the greatest place to live in this planet!)"
Not nearly as good as it should be considering all the censorship now going down, the level of impoverished people compared to what there should be in nations so advanced, which is technology and resources they take from other nations in the world and do not share with them. You think it's the best place in the world to live because it censors what you want them to and you see it as wreaking havoc on nations you think it should. The entire world should be a great place to live with modern technology, and it would be if only the entire global population socially owned all of it. The West, bullied by the U.S. and the U.K., control an economically-motivated war machine that crushes the rest of the world, and Israel is one of its chief puppets.
"and the stick in the mud against seeing the situation for what it is"
A capitalist system that profits off of war and provides privilege to a few at the expense of the many. At a point in human history where technology has progressed to the point that we can now create an abundance for all if only we all collectively owned these resources. Control of resources by the few and the lucrative nature of weapons production and war under capitalism is the reality, my friend. So yes, I have a "stick in the mud" against that.
"And no amount of good faith from an outside culture is going to change one ounce of it! -"
Certainly not from any culture that is pro-capitalism, pro-war, and pro-Zionism of any other type of pro-ethnocentrism.
"Because here is cultures against cultures - your values are different from theirs."
We could all live in peace despite differences in cultural belief if we all collectively owned the resources and provided an equal amount to everyone.; At our core, all humans have a mutual interest in access to food, clean water, a clean environment, good health care, good educational opportunities, a guarantee of work we are individually suited for, and good material compensation so we can live in comfort. When you give everyone that, we can tolerate our differences, and keep our religious and cultural beliefs on a personal level and out of official government policy.
When you deny some groups of people the above, with only a handful of people from each group having the lion's share of that bounty, then you end up with the type of world we have now -- where war, censorship, hatred and ethnocentrism as government policy are rationalized and the order of the day. If you make excuses to continue like this, and continue to think this is a just system as long as groups of people you most emotionally identify with have what you perceive to the most access to these resources -- and are not concerned that only a few actually have enough to live in true comfort & control everything -- then you are indeed supporting an insane global regime that needs to go down.
"Their have been plenty of nations that have made that mistake before. Siege of Van in 1915"
But you do not think war and profiteering based on war is a mistake. It's "sometimes necessary" in your eyes.
"The situation with needs to end"
There we agree. We just do not concur on the solution. You think continued slaughter of innocents in this case is somehow going to end the problem. I think history, both ancient and recent, shows us that is not the solution, but the problem itself.
"And if it means war, so be it."
There are plenty of Zionists cheering you on right now. Not to mention executives on the boards of Raytheon, Lockheed Martin, and Boeing.
"ll Hamas has to do is to let the prisoners go"
We all know that has nothing to do with it. The Israeli government wants the land and its resources, and it won't stop until all Palestinians in that area are driven out or killed. And every other nation in the region continues to kowtow to its demands.
" Instead, they are using their own population to fund themselves into being billionaires.."
Mmhmmm, Hamas leaders show so many signs of being billionaires compared to the Israeli real estate brokers now trying to get capitalists across the world to invest in condos to be built in Gaza once the Palestinians are completely driven out, not to mention take advantage of its petroleum resources. Not to mention the billionaires running the war machine, including those in their pockets like Joe Biden. And not to mention AIPAC itself, which has more money than God and pays off politicians and celebrities to cheerlead for Israel and continue sending its government vast amounts of weapons and many other resources that it does not give to its own civilian population. Yes, it's surely Hamas leaders who are rolling in the dough. Yet they are not the ones trying to build condos for themselves there. This is not to defend them, but to make a point that renders your own point ironic and non-sensical. We all know who the real billionaires benefiting from this are.
"That is a matter of opinion and it would be a straw man to say that people have resigned themselves to anything,"
It's not a straw man to say you resigned yourself to the world being an insane place if you come up with excuses to keep staying that course and think it's "too idealistic" to work together to seek a better path.
"or that they get thrills out of seeing bombs dropped on people."
Then demand a ceasefire and a more peaceful, democratic resolution than insisting that the bombing continues.
"he. fact is that war is sometimes necessary,"
Especially if there is money to be made and conquest of land/resources to be had, right? (Gaza is rich in oil and real estate potential, btw. Did you know that? The U.S. and Israeli governments do.)
"as it was with the Nazis it is so with Hamas (And Hamas, one hundred per cent pulls its population into this)"
So the Nazi government would have justified slaughtering all the German citizens much as you think Hamas justifies slaughtering the Palestinian civilians? How would you like it, NC, if I suggested that "this is war!" hence the actions of the Israeli government and the IDF justified slaughtering the entirety of the Jewish civilian population? And I also justified that by pointing out how many of those citizens agree with the slaughter in Gaza, as do you? Well, I DO NOT think that, I do not want to see any civilian hurt regardless of where they live, or what their ethnicity or religion is, or what their ruling government is like. That should tell you something huge about the difference between those of us who oppose war and ethnocentric ideologies and those who support the "necessity" of either.
Hamas would not exist if not for the actions of the IDF over the course of decades. Consider what an end to warfare and oppression against the Palestinians might accomplish. Slaughtering them just recruits more people for orgs like Hamas and turns Israel into a pariah in front of the entire world.
"I didn't see any one jumping up and down in the time of the 2nd World War, saying, oh, what a shame we're carpet bombing Dresden - Because they understood the fact that sometimes war is necessary to get rid of a greater evil ."
The bombing of Dresden and dropping atomic bombs on Hiroshima & Nagasaki during WWII Is something we deeply regret, was likely not necessary to have ended the war, and is something we never want to see any government find excuses to do ever again. Zionism is as great an evil as any other ethnocentrist ideology, and Israel proves that every day of the year. Especially when you argue that it makes actions like this "necessary" and it causes some people to think some forms of ethnocentric ideologies are morally superior to others. That was the crux of both the Nazi and Imperial Japanese ideologies during the decade leading up to WWII and throughout that war.
"It was done because it needed to be"
Mmmhmm. Keep justifying war and slaughter of innocents, and talking about moral supremacy to justify that. Thank you for continuing to prove my point in this exchange.
"And the very big difference here is that people weren't calling home on their cell phones going, hey, mum, I killed eight of them Unlike Hamas."
Where do you get this info from? The Israeli news agencies and the U.S. government leaking it to mainstream news sources? Like all the other tidbits that have been disproven or at least unproven? This is called war propaganda, to dehumanize "the enemy."
"In fact, there was quite a revealing video a few days showing the reactions of Israelis with this war and how sad they feel versus people from Arabic countries who celebrate by giving sweets..."
You mean like those videos of Israeli officials and soldiers and citizens referring to the people of Gaza as animals and how they deserve this?
"You have a stick in the mud against the West (Which is by far the greatest place to live in this planet!)"
Not nearly as good as it should be considering all the censorship now going down, the level of impoverished people compared to what there should be in nations so advanced, which is technology and resources they take from other nations in the world and do not share with them. You think it's the best place in the world to live because it censors what you want them to and you see it as wreaking havoc on nations you think it should. The entire world should be a great place to live with modern technology, and it would be if only the entire global population socially owned all of it. The West, bullied by the U.S. and the U.K., control an economically-motivated war machine that crushes the rest of the world, and Israel is one of its chief puppets.
"and the stick in the mud against seeing the situation for what it is"
A capitalist system that profits off of war and provides privilege to a few at the expense of the many. At a point in human history where technology has progressed to the point that we can now create an abundance for all if only we all collectively owned these resources. Control of resources by the few and the lucrative nature of weapons production and war under capitalism is the reality, my friend. So yes, I have a "stick in the mud" against that.
"And no amount of good faith from an outside culture is going to change one ounce of it! -"
Certainly not from any culture that is pro-capitalism, pro-war, and pro-Zionism of any other type of pro-ethnocentrism.
"Because here is cultures against cultures - your values are different from theirs."
We could all live in peace despite differences in cultural belief if we all collectively owned the resources and provided an equal amount to everyone.; At our core, all humans have a mutual interest in access to food, clean water, a clean environment, good health care, good educational opportunities, a guarantee of work we are individually suited for, and good material compensation so we can live in comfort. When you give everyone that, we can tolerate our differences, and keep our religious and cultural beliefs on a personal level and out of official government policy.
When you deny some groups of people the above, with only a handful of people from each group having the lion's share of that bounty, then you end up with the type of world we have now -- where war, censorship, hatred and ethnocentrism as government policy are rationalized and the order of the day. If you make excuses to continue like this, and continue to think this is a just system as long as groups of people you most emotionally identify with have what you perceive to the most access to these resources -- and are not concerned that only a few actually have enough to live in true comfort & control everything -- then you are indeed supporting an insane global regime that needs to go down.
"Their have been plenty of nations that have made that mistake before. Siege of Van in 1915"
But you do not think war and profiteering based on war is a mistake. It's "sometimes necessary" in your eyes.
"The situation with needs to end"
There we agree. We just do not concur on the solution. You think continued slaughter of innocents in this case is somehow going to end the problem. I think history, both ancient and recent, shows us that is not the solution, but the problem itself.
"And if it means war, so be it."
There are plenty of Zionists cheering you on right now. Not to mention executives on the boards of Raytheon, Lockheed Martin, and Boeing.
"ll Hamas has to do is to let the prisoners go"
We all know that has nothing to do with it. The Israeli government wants the land and its resources, and it won't stop until all Palestinians in that area are driven out or killed. And every other nation in the region continues to kowtow to its demands.
" Instead, they are using their own population to fund themselves into being billionaires.."
Mmhmmm, Hamas leaders show so many signs of being billionaires compared to the Israeli real estate brokers now trying to get capitalists across the world to invest in condos to be built in Gaza once the Palestinians are completely driven out, not to mention take advantage of its petroleum resources. Not to mention the billionaires running the war machine, including those in their pockets like Joe Biden. And not to mention AIPAC itself, which has more money than God and pays off politicians and celebrities to cheerlead for Israel and continue sending its government vast amounts of weapons and many other resources that it does not give to its own civilian population. Yes, it's surely Hamas leaders who are rolling in the dough. Yet they are not the ones trying to build condos for themselves there. This is not to defend them, but to make a point that renders your own point ironic and non-sensical. We all know who the real billionaires benefiting from this are.