Welll said JenR. The pro-abortion arguments, like this one by Melissa Knox, use exceedingly rare medical anomalies to justify the wanton killing of millions of unborn babies. They ignore any push to hold the male sperm donors accountable because that might also support the pro-life position.
Welll said JenR. The pro-abortion arguments, like this one by Melissa Knox, use exceedingly rare medical anomalies to justify the wanton killing of millions of unborn babies. They ignore any push to hold the male sperm donors accountable because that might also support the pro-life position.
Do let me put in a word here. Holding the man "accountable" is a separate issue--of course nobody likes deadbeat dads, who are notoriously difficult to police, and allow me to say I'm in favor of responsibility all around. But the woman who is pregnant can responsibly decide to terminate--or her doctor can advise her to do so--and I'm saying, "please have mercy on these people" and do not criminalize their decisions
Melissa, you are creating a straw man. No new state laws criminalize women who obtain abortions. Most of them are victims too. Some states defaulted to old laws as a result of the RvW decision, but I am sure those will quickly be corrected/updated.
LetтАЩs show some mercy for the many women being coerced to have abortions, and above all mercy for the innocent unborn children!
I've seen women wait in line for abortions they desperately need, afraid because demonstrators are shouting "murderer!" at them and they want to get the procedure done and go home. I have not seen women "coerced" into having abortions. As I write, women are spending money they don't have for babysitters and gas to find a state that will allow them the abortions they need.
Melissa, Why canтАЩt you acknowledge abortion is the killing of an innocent human life? That is what is happening. A biological fact. Again you use a straw man (evil pro-life demonstrators shouting murderer). Where does this happen? 99.9% of Abortion protestors are peaceful prayerful people. They are offering women alternatives.
It is the boyfriends and families of women in crisis pregnancies who are pushing them to end their babies life. That is where coercion exists.
I do acknowledge abortion is the killing of an innocent life. One that hasn't gotten started. It's sad. But forcing a woman who does not wish to carry to term to do so is also the killing of an innocent human life, or at the very best the gross interference with an innocent human life. As for demonstrators, the violent ones may well be in the minority--I haven't checked statistics, and I'm not in favor of violence--but I'm telling you the stories I heard from women going to the abortion clinic with an escort and hearing people shout "murderer" and duck as they threw things. I'm no fan of the "shout your abortion" crowd either--an abortion is a sad, but entirely private affair between a woman and her physician. Offering a woman an alternative is a wonderful thing to do--I admire those who provide baby car seats, diapers, formula. I object to those who tell a woman she must take this alternative and she may not decide to abort. An alternative with no other choice is not an alternative--it's compelled choice. Women who don't want to abort, whose boyfriends and families push them to do so, should be offered safe passage to obstetric care and a family who wants to adopt. But women who do not wish to go forward with a pregnancy and who know they wish to abort should be left unmolested to proceed--not harassed with pleas to change their minds. When pregnancy is tinged with fear, motherhood is tinged with fear too.
I hear this mentioned but have not seen a state law that suggests it, much less a bunch of state laws. The prosecutable person in states where abortions would be illegal are the practitioners, not the woman seeking to abort. Can you tell me which state(s) has penalties for the woman?
When a miscarriage is a crime, any medical procedure associated with it--like the D&C I had after a miscarriage, a procedure also used to abort, is criminalized. That's also happened in New York City at Catholic hospitals, for example--when the woman is miscarrying but there's still a heartbeat but the fetus is dead. On numerous occasions, doctors have waited, fearing reprisal, until the woman is in sepsis. It's not easy to say when a miscarriage is complete. When I miscarried at ten weeks, I brought what had come out of me to show the doctor; he said, "looks like everything came out" but I continued to bleed and developed an infection, so he advised and performed a D&C. Without which, incidentally, I would have been in sepsis, and infertile.
I agree that women should not be prosecuted but it seems a simple thing to care for with a clearly written statute. And of course, тАЬone side of the story sounds good until you hear the other side.тАЭ I quick googled and found an article from cbsnews and it contained this:
тАЬNational Advocates for Pregnant Women (NAPW) said in a statement that the state's murder and manslaughter laws don't apply to those who suffer miscarriages, defined as pregnancy losses that occur before 20 weeks of pregnancy.
"Even when applied to later losses," NAPW said, "Oklahoma law prohibits prosecution of the 'mother of the unborn child' unless she committed 'a crime that caused the death of the unborn child.'"
So how that can be true with a woman being incarcerated for it makes me think that it is a sticky situation and there is likely more to the story. It is impossible to tell without digging deeper. But the laws should clearly be written to make sure women are not held as criminals. I donтАЩt see that as helping the situation. I imagine these cases are few and far between.
I think you are sensationalizing when you say тАЬa miscarriage is a crime.тАЭ It would have to be written in the law that way. And no one would write that. Otherwise your statement is twisting a unique or murky situation into a commonplace intent of law, which it is not. Every state allows for D&C for miscarriage & I believe for the life of the mother. It is like the difference between if your child died by falling down the steps or your child died by falling down the steps because you threw them down violently. There are tragic situations and there are crimes, but it is not always evident which is the case.
The thing is, practically speaking, on the ground, women are not getting treatment for miscarriages because physicians are afraid of being sued--or, in Catholic hospitals, simply unwilling to perform D&Cs on the very slim chance that the fetus might somehow survive. Whatever state laws say, this is what's actually happening.
From the CDC report on abortion statistics: "Approximately 18% of all pregnancies in the United States end in induced abortion (6)." (data for 2019, I think- linked below)
That does not make it seem like doctors are scared or that it is difficult to obtain an abortion. Doctors are always aware that they might be sued for all sorts of reasons. That is why they have such astronomical malpractice insurance. And not enough time has passed since Depp to have new statistics, so I assume that that is your impression of what is happening because instances of it have been reported. I am very doubtful that it will have a big impact on women who are miscarrying. I just don't see that happening. Why would doctors be afraid when the laws say they can perform abortions for miscarrying women? How hard would that be to prosecute? Who is going to prosecute them at great expense and effort? Again, I agree miscarriages should be cared for to ensure the mother's health and that the laws should be written clearly to protect that. I am not worried that this will be a big threat to women's lives.
If I were a doctor, I would be more concerned to be sued by a woman's family for not treating her miscarriage and letting her die. I am sure there is a right to sue for that eventuality as well.
And I went to the article & thoughts about that but wanted to say that I am sorry for your loss and am very glad you were able to get the care you needed at that time.
I'm still hoping it will be possible to continue talking and both sides listening, while retaining women's constitutional and human rights to abortion. There is a great deal of fear now; I'm not sure why. Historically, abortion wasn't the explosive topic it is now--Leslie Rogan's book explores popular feeling in the eighteenth century: https://publishing.cdlib.org/ucpressebooks/view?docId=ft967nb5z5;brand=ucpress
Welll said JenR. The pro-abortion arguments, like this one by Melissa Knox, use exceedingly rare medical anomalies to justify the wanton killing of millions of unborn babies. They ignore any push to hold the male sperm donors accountable because that might also support the pro-life position.
Do let me put in a word here. Holding the man "accountable" is a separate issue--of course nobody likes deadbeat dads, who are notoriously difficult to police, and allow me to say I'm in favor of responsibility all around. But the woman who is pregnant can responsibly decide to terminate--or her doctor can advise her to do so--and I'm saying, "please have mercy on these people" and do not criminalize their decisions
Melissa, you are creating a straw man. No new state laws criminalize women who obtain abortions. Most of them are victims too. Some states defaulted to old laws as a result of the RvW decision, but I am sure those will quickly be corrected/updated.
LetтАЩs show some mercy for the many women being coerced to have abortions, and above all mercy for the innocent unborn children!
I've seen women wait in line for abortions they desperately need, afraid because demonstrators are shouting "murderer!" at them and they want to get the procedure done and go home. I have not seen women "coerced" into having abortions. As I write, women are spending money they don't have for babysitters and gas to find a state that will allow them the abortions they need.
Melissa, Why canтАЩt you acknowledge abortion is the killing of an innocent human life? That is what is happening. A biological fact. Again you use a straw man (evil pro-life demonstrators shouting murderer). Where does this happen? 99.9% of Abortion protestors are peaceful prayerful people. They are offering women alternatives.
It is the boyfriends and families of women in crisis pregnancies who are pushing them to end their babies life. That is where coercion exists.
I do acknowledge abortion is the killing of an innocent life. One that hasn't gotten started. It's sad. But forcing a woman who does not wish to carry to term to do so is also the killing of an innocent human life, or at the very best the gross interference with an innocent human life. As for demonstrators, the violent ones may well be in the minority--I haven't checked statistics, and I'm not in favor of violence--but I'm telling you the stories I heard from women going to the abortion clinic with an escort and hearing people shout "murderer" and duck as they threw things. I'm no fan of the "shout your abortion" crowd either--an abortion is a sad, but entirely private affair between a woman and her physician. Offering a woman an alternative is a wonderful thing to do--I admire those who provide baby car seats, diapers, formula. I object to those who tell a woman she must take this alternative and she may not decide to abort. An alternative with no other choice is not an alternative--it's compelled choice. Women who don't want to abort, whose boyfriends and families push them to do so, should be offered safe passage to obstetric care and a family who wants to adopt. But women who do not wish to go forward with a pregnancy and who know they wish to abort should be left unmolested to proceed--not harassed with pleas to change their minds. When pregnancy is tinged with fear, motherhood is tinged with fear too.
I hear this mentioned but have not seen a state law that suggests it, much less a bunch of state laws. The prosecutable person in states where abortions would be illegal are the practitioners, not the woman seeking to abort. Can you tell me which state(s) has penalties for the woman?
In both Oklahoma and Georgia, women have been jailed for having miscarriages. Here's one link, but there are others: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-59214544
When a miscarriage is a crime, any medical procedure associated with it--like the D&C I had after a miscarriage, a procedure also used to abort, is criminalized. That's also happened in New York City at Catholic hospitals, for example--when the woman is miscarrying but there's still a heartbeat but the fetus is dead. On numerous occasions, doctors have waited, fearing reprisal, until the woman is in sepsis. It's not easy to say when a miscarriage is complete. When I miscarried at ten weeks, I brought what had come out of me to show the doctor; he said, "looks like everything came out" but I continued to bleed and developed an infection, so he advised and performed a D&C. Without which, incidentally, I would have been in sepsis, and infertile.
I agree that women should not be prosecuted but it seems a simple thing to care for with a clearly written statute. And of course, тАЬone side of the story sounds good until you hear the other side.тАЭ I quick googled and found an article from cbsnews and it contained this:
тАЬNational Advocates for Pregnant Women (NAPW) said in a statement that the state's murder and manslaughter laws don't apply to those who suffer miscarriages, defined as pregnancy losses that occur before 20 weeks of pregnancy.
"Even when applied to later losses," NAPW said, "Oklahoma law prohibits prosecution of the 'mother of the unborn child' unless she committed 'a crime that caused the death of the unborn child.'"
So how that can be true with a woman being incarcerated for it makes me think that it is a sticky situation and there is likely more to the story. It is impossible to tell without digging deeper. But the laws should clearly be written to make sure women are not held as criminals. I donтАЩt see that as helping the situation. I imagine these cases are few and far between.
I think you are sensationalizing when you say тАЬa miscarriage is a crime.тАЭ It would have to be written in the law that way. And no one would write that. Otherwise your statement is twisting a unique or murky situation into a commonplace intent of law, which it is not. Every state allows for D&C for miscarriage & I believe for the life of the mother. It is like the difference between if your child died by falling down the steps or your child died by falling down the steps because you threw them down violently. There are tragic situations and there are crimes, but it is not always evident which is the case.
The thing is, practically speaking, on the ground, women are not getting treatment for miscarriages because physicians are afraid of being sued--or, in Catholic hospitals, simply unwilling to perform D&Cs on the very slim chance that the fetus might somehow survive. Whatever state laws say, this is what's actually happening.
From the CDC report on abortion statistics: "Approximately 18% of all pregnancies in the United States end in induced abortion (6)." (data for 2019, I think- linked below)
That does not make it seem like doctors are scared or that it is difficult to obtain an abortion. Doctors are always aware that they might be sued for all sorts of reasons. That is why they have such astronomical malpractice insurance. And not enough time has passed since Depp to have new statistics, so I assume that that is your impression of what is happening because instances of it have been reported. I am very doubtful that it will have a big impact on women who are miscarrying. I just don't see that happening. Why would doctors be afraid when the laws say they can perform abortions for miscarrying women? How hard would that be to prosecute? Who is going to prosecute them at great expense and effort? Again, I agree miscarriages should be cared for to ensure the mother's health and that the laws should be written clearly to protect that. I am not worried that this will be a big threat to women's lives.
https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/ss/ss7009a1.htm
These statistics were published in 2021, which means they concern a period of time pre-dating 2021.
Things are different now!
Yes, noted. We can only speculate what will happen in the future. Thanks for taking time to discuss the important issues surrounding it.
If I were a doctor, I would be more concerned to be sued by a woman's family for not treating her miscarriage and letting her die. I am sure there is a right to sue for that eventuality as well.
And I went to the article & thoughts about that but wanted to say that I am sorry for your loss and am very glad you were able to get the care you needed at that time.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/brittany-poolaw-manslaughter-miscarriage-pregnancy/
I'm still hoping it will be possible to continue talking and both sides listening, while retaining women's constitutional and human rights to abortion. There is a great deal of fear now; I'm not sure why. Historically, abortion wasn't the explosive topic it is now--Leslie Rogan's book explores popular feeling in the eighteenth century: https://publishing.cdlib.org/ucpressebooks/view?docId=ft967nb5z5;brand=ucpress