I hear this mentioned but have not seen a state law that suggests it, much less a bunch of state laws. The prosecutable person in states where abortions would be illegal are the practitioners, not the woman seeking to abort. Can you tell me which state(s) has penalties for the woman?
I hear this mentioned but have not seen a state law that suggests it, much less a bunch of state laws. The prosecutable person in states where abortions would be illegal are the practitioners, not the woman seeking to abort. Can you tell me which state(s) has penalties for the woman?
When a miscarriage is a crime, any medical procedure associated with it--like the D&C I had after a miscarriage, a procedure also used to abort, is criminalized. That's also happened in New York City at Catholic hospitals, for example--when the woman is miscarrying but there's still a heartbeat but the fetus is dead. On numerous occasions, doctors have waited, fearing reprisal, until the woman is in sepsis. It's not easy to say when a miscarriage is complete. When I miscarried at ten weeks, I brought what had come out of me to show the doctor; he said, "looks like everything came out" but I continued to bleed and developed an infection, so he advised and performed a D&C. Without which, incidentally, I would have been in sepsis, and infertile.
I agree that women should not be prosecuted but it seems a simple thing to care for with a clearly written statute. And of course, тАЬone side of the story sounds good until you hear the other side.тАЭ I quick googled and found an article from cbsnews and it contained this:
тАЬNational Advocates for Pregnant Women (NAPW) said in a statement that the state's murder and manslaughter laws don't apply to those who suffer miscarriages, defined as pregnancy losses that occur before 20 weeks of pregnancy.
"Even when applied to later losses," NAPW said, "Oklahoma law prohibits prosecution of the 'mother of the unborn child' unless she committed 'a crime that caused the death of the unborn child.'"
So how that can be true with a woman being incarcerated for it makes me think that it is a sticky situation and there is likely more to the story. It is impossible to tell without digging deeper. But the laws should clearly be written to make sure women are not held as criminals. I donтАЩt see that as helping the situation. I imagine these cases are few and far between.
I think you are sensationalizing when you say тАЬa miscarriage is a crime.тАЭ It would have to be written in the law that way. And no one would write that. Otherwise your statement is twisting a unique or murky situation into a commonplace intent of law, which it is not. Every state allows for D&C for miscarriage & I believe for the life of the mother. It is like the difference between if your child died by falling down the steps or your child died by falling down the steps because you threw them down violently. There are tragic situations and there are crimes, but it is not always evident which is the case.
The thing is, practically speaking, on the ground, women are not getting treatment for miscarriages because physicians are afraid of being sued--or, in Catholic hospitals, simply unwilling to perform D&Cs on the very slim chance that the fetus might somehow survive. Whatever state laws say, this is what's actually happening.
From the CDC report on abortion statistics: "Approximately 18% of all pregnancies in the United States end in induced abortion (6)." (data for 2019, I think- linked below)
That does not make it seem like doctors are scared or that it is difficult to obtain an abortion. Doctors are always aware that they might be sued for all sorts of reasons. That is why they have such astronomical malpractice insurance. And not enough time has passed since Depp to have new statistics, so I assume that that is your impression of what is happening because instances of it have been reported. I am very doubtful that it will have a big impact on women who are miscarrying. I just don't see that happening. Why would doctors be afraid when the laws say they can perform abortions for miscarrying women? How hard would that be to prosecute? Who is going to prosecute them at great expense and effort? Again, I agree miscarriages should be cared for to ensure the mother's health and that the laws should be written clearly to protect that. I am not worried that this will be a big threat to women's lives.
If I were a doctor, I would be more concerned to be sued by a woman's family for not treating her miscarriage and letting her die. I am sure there is a right to sue for that eventuality as well.
And I went to the article & thoughts about that but wanted to say that I am sorry for your loss and am very glad you were able to get the care you needed at that time.
I hear this mentioned but have not seen a state law that suggests it, much less a bunch of state laws. The prosecutable person in states where abortions would be illegal are the practitioners, not the woman seeking to abort. Can you tell me which state(s) has penalties for the woman?
In both Oklahoma and Georgia, women have been jailed for having miscarriages. Here's one link, but there are others: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-59214544
When a miscarriage is a crime, any medical procedure associated with it--like the D&C I had after a miscarriage, a procedure also used to abort, is criminalized. That's also happened in New York City at Catholic hospitals, for example--when the woman is miscarrying but there's still a heartbeat but the fetus is dead. On numerous occasions, doctors have waited, fearing reprisal, until the woman is in sepsis. It's not easy to say when a miscarriage is complete. When I miscarried at ten weeks, I brought what had come out of me to show the doctor; he said, "looks like everything came out" but I continued to bleed and developed an infection, so he advised and performed a D&C. Without which, incidentally, I would have been in sepsis, and infertile.
I agree that women should not be prosecuted but it seems a simple thing to care for with a clearly written statute. And of course, тАЬone side of the story sounds good until you hear the other side.тАЭ I quick googled and found an article from cbsnews and it contained this:
тАЬNational Advocates for Pregnant Women (NAPW) said in a statement that the state's murder and manslaughter laws don't apply to those who suffer miscarriages, defined as pregnancy losses that occur before 20 weeks of pregnancy.
"Even when applied to later losses," NAPW said, "Oklahoma law prohibits prosecution of the 'mother of the unborn child' unless she committed 'a crime that caused the death of the unborn child.'"
So how that can be true with a woman being incarcerated for it makes me think that it is a sticky situation and there is likely more to the story. It is impossible to tell without digging deeper. But the laws should clearly be written to make sure women are not held as criminals. I donтАЩt see that as helping the situation. I imagine these cases are few and far between.
I think you are sensationalizing when you say тАЬa miscarriage is a crime.тАЭ It would have to be written in the law that way. And no one would write that. Otherwise your statement is twisting a unique or murky situation into a commonplace intent of law, which it is not. Every state allows for D&C for miscarriage & I believe for the life of the mother. It is like the difference between if your child died by falling down the steps or your child died by falling down the steps because you threw them down violently. There are tragic situations and there are crimes, but it is not always evident which is the case.
The thing is, practically speaking, on the ground, women are not getting treatment for miscarriages because physicians are afraid of being sued--or, in Catholic hospitals, simply unwilling to perform D&Cs on the very slim chance that the fetus might somehow survive. Whatever state laws say, this is what's actually happening.
From the CDC report on abortion statistics: "Approximately 18% of all pregnancies in the United States end in induced abortion (6)." (data for 2019, I think- linked below)
That does not make it seem like doctors are scared or that it is difficult to obtain an abortion. Doctors are always aware that they might be sued for all sorts of reasons. That is why they have such astronomical malpractice insurance. And not enough time has passed since Depp to have new statistics, so I assume that that is your impression of what is happening because instances of it have been reported. I am very doubtful that it will have a big impact on women who are miscarrying. I just don't see that happening. Why would doctors be afraid when the laws say they can perform abortions for miscarrying women? How hard would that be to prosecute? Who is going to prosecute them at great expense and effort? Again, I agree miscarriages should be cared for to ensure the mother's health and that the laws should be written clearly to protect that. I am not worried that this will be a big threat to women's lives.
https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/ss/ss7009a1.htm
These statistics were published in 2021, which means they concern a period of time pre-dating 2021.
Things are different now!
Yes, noted. We can only speculate what will happen in the future. Thanks for taking time to discuss the important issues surrounding it.
If I were a doctor, I would be more concerned to be sued by a woman's family for not treating her miscarriage and letting her die. I am sure there is a right to sue for that eventuality as well.
And I went to the article & thoughts about that but wanted to say that I am sorry for your loss and am very glad you were able to get the care you needed at that time.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/brittany-poolaw-manslaughter-miscarriage-pregnancy/