You misinterpret the meaning of what Simone de Beauvoir said. She was not questioning basic biology-sex itself- she was referring to the proscriptive roles society forced upon women. And second-wave feminism fought against those proscriptive roles as well and worked to liberate women from them and to expand their place in society. It was…
You misinterpret the meaning of what Simone de Beauvoir said. She was not questioning basic biology-sex itself- she was referring to the proscriptive roles society forced upon women. And second-wave feminism fought against those proscriptive roles as well and worked to liberate women from them and to expand their place in society. It was second-wave feminists (women) who built women's shelters for those who were victims of domestic abuse. And they built rape crisis centers and fought against violence against women. And worked to gain greater independence for women and to expand their opportunities in the workplace and achieve greater equality. They worked for maternity leave and many other changes to help women gain greater independence. These women did not deny biology as many members of women's rights orgs were married and had children--I have met many of these women and they had no doubt about their sex as it was the basis upon which women had been denied equal rights throughout history. That women were discriminated on the basis of their sex in undisputed as the legal record will show.
The men I was referring to are those who perpetrate violence against women and disregard their boundaries. Men who supplant women's sex-based rights and invade their spaces.
Women are not responsible for those men's violent or disrespectful behavior--those men must take responsibility for their actions--they must own it. Men are overwhelmingly the perpetrators of violence and women are often the victims of it. Those misogynist men are the problem and the responsibility for their behavior rests w/ them and w/ them alone.
I don't misinterpret her thinking. That's why I said 'seeds'. The push to deny biology grew from there, abetted by the likes of Kinsey and John Money and reached its apogee perhaps with Judith Butler. By my observation, all through the 2nd wave movement, the role of women as bearers of children, ie. as mothers, has been denigrated, and the very existence of the nuclear family portrayed as an oppressive 'patriarchal' institution that needs dismantling. And what could do that more effectively and thoroughly than to claim in absolute terms that biology is not destiny. The very existence of a child implies unique responsibilities for women and men respectively, and feminism has largely sought to 'liberate' women from theirs through all sorts of policies and ideological fictions.
Yes, most 'normie' feminists would not agree with this radical position, but as you say, feminism is not a monolith, and the conviction that women can BE men (ergo vice-versa) underlies so much of what is happening today. Do you think the current invasion of men (trans women) into women's spaces was not preceded by decades of efforts by feminists to dismantle everything that was once considered a male space? Even men's clubs, Boy Scouts, the military and men's support groups on campus have been ‘disrupted’. Of course, many or most of the barriers in education and the workplace did need to be eliminated for the sake of equal opportunity for women, that's true. But feminism to me is basically a wrecking ball to the culture. Rather than respecting men in their unique roles, it saw men as the enemy to be defeated on all fronts a la Gloria Steinem - a woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle. If you take down barriers that restrict your freedom, you run the risk of going too far by not realizing some of those barriers were actually designed to protect you. The ‘sexist’ institution of chivalry, for example, is all but lost, such that men today won’t as easily step up to protect women from other men. Feminism fails to see the value in any restriction at all because it wants what it wants. One of its biggest intellectual errors.is the belief that to achieve ‘equality’ one must have total freedom because apparently men have always had total freedom. That isn’t even remotely true, as a moment’s reflection will reveal.
In any case, I appreciate that you seem to be placing the responsibility for the current debacle squarely on the individuals involved, not blaming ‘men’ en masse. We also need to take responsibility for our ideas, our thinking, and that is not on one sex, but on all who adopt and propagate ideas that could have deleterious effects on society.
We just have some disagreements but I appreciate your engagement and civility in discussing these matters. I would hope that decent men and women would help someone in need but I think men and women are afraid to get involved to help others these days. I was on the train from downtown Minneapolis some years ago after work and a young, effeminate man was being harassed by another guy. I and another person said something and began to stand up to help him and the harasser stopped. I think we--men and women--have lost some of our humanity and collective courage when it comes to bullies. And I consider the men who insist on invading women's sex-class--and their spaces--to be misogynist bullies of the worst kind.
You misinterpret the meaning of what Simone de Beauvoir said. She was not questioning basic biology-sex itself- she was referring to the proscriptive roles society forced upon women. And second-wave feminism fought against those proscriptive roles as well and worked to liberate women from them and to expand their place in society. It was second-wave feminists (women) who built women's shelters for those who were victims of domestic abuse. And they built rape crisis centers and fought against violence against women. And worked to gain greater independence for women and to expand their opportunities in the workplace and achieve greater equality. They worked for maternity leave and many other changes to help women gain greater independence. These women did not deny biology as many members of women's rights orgs were married and had children--I have met many of these women and they had no doubt about their sex as it was the basis upon which women had been denied equal rights throughout history. That women were discriminated on the basis of their sex in undisputed as the legal record will show.
The men I was referring to are those who perpetrate violence against women and disregard their boundaries. Men who supplant women's sex-based rights and invade their spaces.
Women are not responsible for those men's violent or disrespectful behavior--those men must take responsibility for their actions--they must own it. Men are overwhelmingly the perpetrators of violence and women are often the victims of it. Those misogynist men are the problem and the responsibility for their behavior rests w/ them and w/ them alone.
I don't misinterpret her thinking. That's why I said 'seeds'. The push to deny biology grew from there, abetted by the likes of Kinsey and John Money and reached its apogee perhaps with Judith Butler. By my observation, all through the 2nd wave movement, the role of women as bearers of children, ie. as mothers, has been denigrated, and the very existence of the nuclear family portrayed as an oppressive 'patriarchal' institution that needs dismantling. And what could do that more effectively and thoroughly than to claim in absolute terms that biology is not destiny. The very existence of a child implies unique responsibilities for women and men respectively, and feminism has largely sought to 'liberate' women from theirs through all sorts of policies and ideological fictions.
Yes, most 'normie' feminists would not agree with this radical position, but as you say, feminism is not a monolith, and the conviction that women can BE men (ergo vice-versa) underlies so much of what is happening today. Do you think the current invasion of men (trans women) into women's spaces was not preceded by decades of efforts by feminists to dismantle everything that was once considered a male space? Even men's clubs, Boy Scouts, the military and men's support groups on campus have been ‘disrupted’. Of course, many or most of the barriers in education and the workplace did need to be eliminated for the sake of equal opportunity for women, that's true. But feminism to me is basically a wrecking ball to the culture. Rather than respecting men in their unique roles, it saw men as the enemy to be defeated on all fronts a la Gloria Steinem - a woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle. If you take down barriers that restrict your freedom, you run the risk of going too far by not realizing some of those barriers were actually designed to protect you. The ‘sexist’ institution of chivalry, for example, is all but lost, such that men today won’t as easily step up to protect women from other men. Feminism fails to see the value in any restriction at all because it wants what it wants. One of its biggest intellectual errors.is the belief that to achieve ‘equality’ one must have total freedom because apparently men have always had total freedom. That isn’t even remotely true, as a moment’s reflection will reveal.
In any case, I appreciate that you seem to be placing the responsibility for the current debacle squarely on the individuals involved, not blaming ‘men’ en masse. We also need to take responsibility for our ideas, our thinking, and that is not on one sex, but on all who adopt and propagate ideas that could have deleterious effects on society.
We just have some disagreements but I appreciate your engagement and civility in discussing these matters. I would hope that decent men and women would help someone in need but I think men and women are afraid to get involved to help others these days. I was on the train from downtown Minneapolis some years ago after work and a young, effeminate man was being harassed by another guy. I and another person said something and began to stand up to help him and the harasser stopped. I think we--men and women--have lost some of our humanity and collective courage when it comes to bullies. And I consider the men who insist on invading women's sex-class--and their spaces--to be misogynist bullies of the worst kind.