I’m not okay with having the article on K-12 schools being highlighted when it’s based on well worn rhetoric that inaccurately portrays what today’s schools focus on. Even more damning is how this teacher falsely states that even MORE inquiry is what kids need.
The truth is simple.
We have a higher percentage of kids falling through the cracks because they can’t read, they can’t write and they don’t know basic arithmetic by the time they’re 9 years old. They will never catch up, and no amount of inquiry, or Socratic teaching will get them there. What they need is more mastery, more practice, in order to garner more knowledge before they can even attempt critical thought.
The novice learner is not equal to a master learner. They need help. 50 years of Cognitive Science tells us that https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1207/s15326985ep4102_1. But in typical edu fashion, Ed schools and curriculum turn the other way. We have weaker school standards than ever before and our student achievement reflects that.
The whole thing about inquiry learning has a political feel to it. It's even called progressivism by some. It's one of those things the left would pick up because it sounds enlightened, treat kids like adults, but doesn't really work. I think the politicization of public schools has been disastrous.
it's been around for hundreds of years. Rousseau's child centred philosophy are hugely popular in education schools, even though he chucked all 5 of his own kids into orphanages care because he couldn't be bothered to raise them. It stinks, for the kids, because they're the ones being robbed here, limiting their futures because they're unable to read or know basic math.
A truth, and one that is relevant here, is that research (by Hattie and others with similar levels of credibility) shows that inquiry teaching and learning when done well is incredibly impactful. Regardless, the piece argues for effective inquiry teaching and learning (which again, research shows is fruitful) as a means to help grow citizens who lean more into the principles of classic liberalism and liberal science which seeks complexity and nuance and disconfirmation and welcomes challenging of ideas. This would help us through our polarization and lead to progress on many of our political and social issues. If you dig a little deeper you'll find that my approach is highly compatible with those who you're citing and not to be confused with the worst examples you might be imagining. I addressed this in my podcast discussion with John Hattie in April, here's an excerpt. https://twitter.com/dperkinsed/status/1516460047898800130?s=20&t=oPzcJsHiAfnliHxU5oaD7g. I'll be talking with Paul Kirschner soon about his latest books and in one of them he notes inquiry teaching works: https://twitter.com/dperkinsed/status/1565461395147202561/photo/1
I'm not sure if you're trying to be passive aggressive here ("See? We're saying the same thing but I'm totally right and you're wrong"), or if you are completely misunderstanding my point. Not once have I suggested inquiry isn't part of effective instruction. I've even linked to multiple studies that support why it's important, although why you would argue for more inquiry, instead of less, is disingenuous, considering that all research has determined explicit makes up a greater percentage of best instructional practices over inquiry. What you are completely disregarding, and what is more importantly MISSING from everyday instruction, is that today's classroom in North America is void of explicit instruction. And to suggest otherwise determines you have not been inside the average classroom in the average school in the past 20 years. We can pontificate ad infinitum about the benefits and wonders of inquiry, however if kids don't know their facts first, presented to them by someone more knowledgeable than themselves, no amount of inquiry will help them become better educated. Why fiddle when Rome is burning? Would it not be more helpful to point out specifically what our kids need, here and now, in order to make them better informed which might help them become critical thinkers?
Inquiry is useless if they don't have a very firm grasp of the fundamentals:
“There are always these kinds of arguments in education, where people have very strong views based primarily on personal experience, and we specialize in investigating those views,” he said. “As it turns out, in this case the professors are more right than high school teachers, because how well students did in courses before calculus makes the biggest difference in their college calculus grade. But the heavy lifting is done by those math teachers whose efforts lay the foundation for later student success.” https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2018/07/masters-of-calculus-come-prepared-harvard-study-shows/
And we have another study which shows that inquiry based approaches for math are not effective for undergrads. One can then infer that it is likely to be ineffective for K-12 as well,
I could go on all day, however I have yet to see any valid data to support your claims that our kids require more inquiry. I did ask earlier, and I have yet to see anything which suggests those nations which employ inquiry based learning do better overall, than those countries who have a better mix of explicit+inquiry. Where is it?
It's tiresome having this argument up over and over again. Just do the right thing. Get our kids learning and graduating with a firm grasp on the basics first, so they can begin to grasp higher order thinking. Start their first.
I have no interest in being passive aggressive, nor aggressive for that matter. The certainty by which you reply seems to make much of the point I made in the original piece in the context of polarization. To answer your question about nations and results, many Asian countries are lauded for their results but misunderstood in their pedagogical approach. I discussed this here: https://wegrowteachers.com/ep-250-east-asian-american-constructivism/. Seems to me there are two issues here. First, your concern about the effectiveness of teaching and what works best. On that matter I don't think you're understanding me and for what I'm advocating but I share many of the concerns you've expressed. The second is the ways in which the shift I'm advocating for in our schools might help with the polarization and corrosion of our democracy. You don't seem interested in that assertion, which is fine, but that was the main thesis of the piece. I am not interested in an argument but being understood and understanding. I think I understand you and it doesn't seem you're interested in understanding me but more interested in proving you're right. As I mentioned, I am not interested in that argument because it's not one that I'm making.
If you don't want to be passive aggressive then don't be. Understand the argument before you comment. Your piece has no relevance in how to improve the system...something that I assumed FAIR was interested in promoting. What we are getting here, is more fiddling while Rome burns.
I've now asked you twice to provide data to support how inquiry supports best teaching practices and where it's been proven to be successful implementing it system wide. Where is proof behind your claims?
Unless blogs have empirical data included, I don't have time for pieces that merely promote one's own point of view. My own daughter attended high school in Japan and can attest to how much further ahead those kids think than our own do. Furthermore we also have newcomers Estonia and also Switzerland overshadowing former darling Finland which, has embraced inquiry learning and has only seen a huge decline internationally since they moved away from implementing a knowledge based curriculum. It's all inquiry now, and kids are paying the price. Polarization is the direct result of not being informed, and of not allowing kids to use their cognitive abilities to assess what they are reading, and how to problem solve effectively. That only becomes through mastery, and obtaining crucial foundational knowledge. So let's first ensure our kids are literate and numerate before moving on to critical thought and inquiry.
The schools’ curricula would inevitably become centered on DEI, and quality education would become secondary to activism. Which means lets all be dumbed down together. Imagine the frustration and anger generated by kids who want to learn and excel but are told you must understand that is a form of discrimination. So for $38 billion and 36K per student you get mediocracy from the who deal. A bloated bureaucracy which says, we are not appreciated, we are under paid, and under staffed. Oh please keep those germ ridden kids at home and in a mask.
No wonder they hate school choice and vouchers. Some of these parasites might actually have to get a real job and do some actual work. How absolutely racist, homophobic, right wing SUPER MAGA, terroristic can you be? You actually want education for your kids for 38 billion? Please!
Is there any wonder why parents are saying enough of this crap and how about we get involved in what is being taught and the results we expect. Kids who can not read, write, or do basic math are simply dead weight to a society. That is reality, but it also makes them more dependent on politicians and hand outs. Which the Teachers Union fully supports these same politicians who say this works for both of us.
Last question, was the Hunter Study by Hunter Biden during one of his drug fueled binges and in consultation with Corn Pop? Sure sounds like it.
Let's start with - The Battle Over Diversity Training. I find this article to be a form of subjective bias, criticism, and a pre-ordained opinion. Let me say that when you write the words " that DeSantis’s Trump-lite culture-warmongering is cynical and noxious, and the “Stop WOKE” law—which should be taken out and shot for its moniker alone—is a very real speech infringement, especially given the broad scope and the vagueness of its prohibitions."
"so culture warriors like DeSantis are only too happy to trample on corporations’ First Amendment rights. At least, until they run into judicial review." What is being said is TRUMP - TRUMP must be bad. Have you even taken time to understand why parents and corporations and their workers are tired of being told how racist and bigoted they are? Have you wondered why our children are doing so poorly in STEM and we must import STEM professionals? Have you ever worked in a corporation or setting that pulls you into a workshop to tell you what a piece of crap you are and you need to re-consider your values and life? Plus, you still need to make your deadlines even though we put you in theses workshops or you will be rated poorly. The government has been doing this for almost 50 years. Every new and supposed method to improve relations and performance and get equality. Yet here we are. Maybe people are just sick of being told or implied they are somehow the problem in society. When the real problem is slackers who want to get rich off division and lazy politicians who say, yeah that must be it. Not that we piss money away to our friends and sponsors versus the peoples needs. So you paint all of this as a radical Right Wing push. That in its self says you had a pre set opinion and didn't try to understand why people are rebelling and saying "enough".
Then you add, "While Rufo’s dispatches from the culture-war front definitely need to be taken with a grain, or maybe a shaker-full, of salt"; which means this could be off some but not to the level of the Right Wing Culture Warrior who must be taken to court. Seriously, try to be at least a little more coy in trying to write a hit piece on any attempts to question the put forth culture-war that is designed to solve all of societies problems. Think I have seen this, oh yah, in the late 60's and early 70"s when the military put us all in racial training. So this is really an updated money hustle program. How about advocating for the cities to properly fund schools, provide equal learning capabilities and try to pull in some jobs for people rather than saying it's all racial?
Ad for, Manji decided to expand the project into a unique DEI consultancy in which the initials stand for “diversity, empathy, and inclusion.” I am afraid it is also just a renamed replay of all of the last 50 years. Until we get to a point where you are truly able to speak your mind, no matter how dumb it is Rufo and any KKK idiots out there, you will not have true free speech.
Final thought, if companies or schools with parents inputs want any training, it should be based on something from history. How about the slave James Armistead Lafayette who without there would be no United States. Maybe more on the Buffalo Soldiers, the Chinese who built the railroads, the 313 Artillery Unit in WW II. An in-depth look at slavery and its origins, where did they come from, why were they prisoners, who bought and sold them, the industrial revolution with no Irish or Italians need apply? There is plenty to teach and discuss without getting someone's personnel take on what is societies problem and oh by the way, pay me.
I’m not okay with having the article on K-12 schools being highlighted when it’s based on well worn rhetoric that inaccurately portrays what today’s schools focus on. Even more damning is how this teacher falsely states that even MORE inquiry is what kids need.
The truth is simple.
We have a higher percentage of kids falling through the cracks because they can’t read, they can’t write and they don’t know basic arithmetic by the time they’re 9 years old. They will never catch up, and no amount of inquiry, or Socratic teaching will get them there. What they need is more mastery, more practice, in order to garner more knowledge before they can even attempt critical thought.
The novice learner is not equal to a master learner. They need help. 50 years of Cognitive Science tells us that https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1207/s15326985ep4102_1. But in typical edu fashion, Ed schools and curriculum turn the other way. We have weaker school standards than ever before and our student achievement reflects that.
I highly recommend more palatable columns to recommend - teacher/author Barry Garelick is one https://substack.com/profile/23585752-barry-garelick, as is Greg Ashman https://substack.com/profile/12430510-greg-ashman , or at the very least, scrutinize columns before blindly recommending them that do more harm than good.
The whole thing about inquiry learning has a political feel to it. It's even called progressivism by some. It's one of those things the left would pick up because it sounds enlightened, treat kids like adults, but doesn't really work. I think the politicization of public schools has been disastrous.
it's been around for hundreds of years. Rousseau's child centred philosophy are hugely popular in education schools, even though he chucked all 5 of his own kids into orphanages care because he couldn't be bothered to raise them. It stinks, for the kids, because they're the ones being robbed here, limiting their futures because they're unable to read or know basic math.
A truth, and one that is relevant here, is that research (by Hattie and others with similar levels of credibility) shows that inquiry teaching and learning when done well is incredibly impactful. Regardless, the piece argues for effective inquiry teaching and learning (which again, research shows is fruitful) as a means to help grow citizens who lean more into the principles of classic liberalism and liberal science which seeks complexity and nuance and disconfirmation and welcomes challenging of ideas. This would help us through our polarization and lead to progress on many of our political and social issues. If you dig a little deeper you'll find that my approach is highly compatible with those who you're citing and not to be confused with the worst examples you might be imagining. I addressed this in my podcast discussion with John Hattie in April, here's an excerpt. https://twitter.com/dperkinsed/status/1516460047898800130?s=20&t=oPzcJsHiAfnliHxU5oaD7g. I'll be talking with Paul Kirschner soon about his latest books and in one of them he notes inquiry teaching works: https://twitter.com/dperkinsed/status/1565461395147202561/photo/1
I'm not sure if you're trying to be passive aggressive here ("See? We're saying the same thing but I'm totally right and you're wrong"), or if you are completely misunderstanding my point. Not once have I suggested inquiry isn't part of effective instruction. I've even linked to multiple studies that support why it's important, although why you would argue for more inquiry, instead of less, is disingenuous, considering that all research has determined explicit makes up a greater percentage of best instructional practices over inquiry. What you are completely disregarding, and what is more importantly MISSING from everyday instruction, is that today's classroom in North America is void of explicit instruction. And to suggest otherwise determines you have not been inside the average classroom in the average school in the past 20 years. We can pontificate ad infinitum about the benefits and wonders of inquiry, however if kids don't know their facts first, presented to them by someone more knowledgeable than themselves, no amount of inquiry will help them become better educated. Why fiddle when Rome is burning? Would it not be more helpful to point out specifically what our kids need, here and now, in order to make them better informed which might help them become critical thinkers?
I'm familiar with Hattie and Kirschner and all the other researchers you continually like to name drop with. Cherry picking their statements to support your argument isn't valid https://gregashman.wordpress.com/2015/11/19/hattie-on-inquiry-learning/.
Inquiry is useless if they don't have a very firm grasp of the fundamentals:
“There are always these kinds of arguments in education, where people have very strong views based primarily on personal experience, and we specialize in investigating those views,” he said. “As it turns out, in this case the professors are more right than high school teachers, because how well students did in courses before calculus makes the biggest difference in their college calculus grade. But the heavy lifting is done by those math teachers whose efforts lay the foundation for later student success.” https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2018/07/masters-of-calculus-come-prepared-harvard-study-shows/
And we have another study which shows that inquiry based approaches for math are not effective for undergrads. One can then infer that it is likely to be ineffective for K-12 as well,
which, along with the gaps in students' knowledge, why are we surprised by that https://www.researchgate.net/publication/361557835_Inquiry-Based_Mathematics_Education_a_call_for_reform_in_tertiary_education_seems_unjustified?
Or how about Science instruction https://intellectualmathematics.com/blog/pisa-shows-inquiry-based-learning-a-failure-alas/?
I could go on all day, however I have yet to see any valid data to support your claims that our kids require more inquiry. I did ask earlier, and I have yet to see anything which suggests those nations which employ inquiry based learning do better overall, than those countries who have a better mix of explicit+inquiry. Where is it?
And when it comes to gaps in children's knowledge, it's a lack of basic knowledge over inquiry that's missing in their education. As an educator, shouldn't you be more interested in fixing what's wrong, before creating the same scenario which has already been tried, and failed everywhere it's been implemented https://lirias2repo.kuleuven.be/bitstream/id/162764/;jsessionid=63243451A141A297792AFAF17198F2E9? Do you enjoy blaming teachers https://www.thelocal.se/20160825/sweden-teachers-apologize-professor-jonas-linderoth/? Or are you still trying to figure out how to put the cart before the horse?
It's tiresome having this argument up over and over again. Just do the right thing. Get our kids learning and graduating with a firm grasp on the basics first, so they can begin to grasp higher order thinking. Start their first.
I have no interest in being passive aggressive, nor aggressive for that matter. The certainty by which you reply seems to make much of the point I made in the original piece in the context of polarization. To answer your question about nations and results, many Asian countries are lauded for their results but misunderstood in their pedagogical approach. I discussed this here: https://wegrowteachers.com/ep-250-east-asian-american-constructivism/. Seems to me there are two issues here. First, your concern about the effectiveness of teaching and what works best. On that matter I don't think you're understanding me and for what I'm advocating but I share many of the concerns you've expressed. The second is the ways in which the shift I'm advocating for in our schools might help with the polarization and corrosion of our democracy. You don't seem interested in that assertion, which is fine, but that was the main thesis of the piece. I am not interested in an argument but being understood and understanding. I think I understand you and it doesn't seem you're interested in understanding me but more interested in proving you're right. As I mentioned, I am not interested in that argument because it's not one that I'm making.
If you don't want to be passive aggressive then don't be. Understand the argument before you comment. Your piece has no relevance in how to improve the system...something that I assumed FAIR was interested in promoting. What we are getting here, is more fiddling while Rome burns.
I've now asked you twice to provide data to support how inquiry supports best teaching practices and where it's been proven to be successful implementing it system wide. Where is proof behind your claims?
Unless blogs have empirical data included, I don't have time for pieces that merely promote one's own point of view. My own daughter attended high school in Japan and can attest to how much further ahead those kids think than our own do. Furthermore we also have newcomers Estonia and also Switzerland overshadowing former darling Finland which, has embraced inquiry learning and has only seen a huge decline internationally since they moved away from implementing a knowledge based curriculum. It's all inquiry now, and kids are paying the price. Polarization is the direct result of not being informed, and of not allowing kids to use their cognitive abilities to assess what they are reading, and how to problem solve effectively. That only becomes through mastery, and obtaining crucial foundational knowledge. So let's first ensure our kids are literate and numerate before moving on to critical thought and inquiry.
Enjoy your evening.
Sasha Rosenburg a great article.
The schools’ curricula would inevitably become centered on DEI, and quality education would become secondary to activism. Which means lets all be dumbed down together. Imagine the frustration and anger generated by kids who want to learn and excel but are told you must understand that is a form of discrimination. So for $38 billion and 36K per student you get mediocracy from the who deal. A bloated bureaucracy which says, we are not appreciated, we are under paid, and under staffed. Oh please keep those germ ridden kids at home and in a mask.
No wonder they hate school choice and vouchers. Some of these parasites might actually have to get a real job and do some actual work. How absolutely racist, homophobic, right wing SUPER MAGA, terroristic can you be? You actually want education for your kids for 38 billion? Please!
Is there any wonder why parents are saying enough of this crap and how about we get involved in what is being taught and the results we expect. Kids who can not read, write, or do basic math are simply dead weight to a society. That is reality, but it also makes them more dependent on politicians and hand outs. Which the Teachers Union fully supports these same politicians who say this works for both of us.
Last question, was the Hunter Study by Hunter Biden during one of his drug fueled binges and in consultation with Corn Pop? Sure sounds like it.
Let's start with - The Battle Over Diversity Training. I find this article to be a form of subjective bias, criticism, and a pre-ordained opinion. Let me say that when you write the words " that DeSantis’s Trump-lite culture-warmongering is cynical and noxious, and the “Stop WOKE” law—which should be taken out and shot for its moniker alone—is a very real speech infringement, especially given the broad scope and the vagueness of its prohibitions."
"so culture warriors like DeSantis are only too happy to trample on corporations’ First Amendment rights. At least, until they run into judicial review." What is being said is TRUMP - TRUMP must be bad. Have you even taken time to understand why parents and corporations and their workers are tired of being told how racist and bigoted they are? Have you wondered why our children are doing so poorly in STEM and we must import STEM professionals? Have you ever worked in a corporation or setting that pulls you into a workshop to tell you what a piece of crap you are and you need to re-consider your values and life? Plus, you still need to make your deadlines even though we put you in theses workshops or you will be rated poorly. The government has been doing this for almost 50 years. Every new and supposed method to improve relations and performance and get equality. Yet here we are. Maybe people are just sick of being told or implied they are somehow the problem in society. When the real problem is slackers who want to get rich off division and lazy politicians who say, yeah that must be it. Not that we piss money away to our friends and sponsors versus the peoples needs. So you paint all of this as a radical Right Wing push. That in its self says you had a pre set opinion and didn't try to understand why people are rebelling and saying "enough".
Then you add, "While Rufo’s dispatches from the culture-war front definitely need to be taken with a grain, or maybe a shaker-full, of salt"; which means this could be off some but not to the level of the Right Wing Culture Warrior who must be taken to court. Seriously, try to be at least a little more coy in trying to write a hit piece on any attempts to question the put forth culture-war that is designed to solve all of societies problems. Think I have seen this, oh yah, in the late 60's and early 70"s when the military put us all in racial training. So this is really an updated money hustle program. How about advocating for the cities to properly fund schools, provide equal learning capabilities and try to pull in some jobs for people rather than saying it's all racial?
Ad for, Manji decided to expand the project into a unique DEI consultancy in which the initials stand for “diversity, empathy, and inclusion.” I am afraid it is also just a renamed replay of all of the last 50 years. Until we get to a point where you are truly able to speak your mind, no matter how dumb it is Rufo and any KKK idiots out there, you will not have true free speech.
Final thought, if companies or schools with parents inputs want any training, it should be based on something from history. How about the slave James Armistead Lafayette who without there would be no United States. Maybe more on the Buffalo Soldiers, the Chinese who built the railroads, the 313 Artillery Unit in WW II. An in-depth look at slavery and its origins, where did they come from, why were they prisoners, who bought and sold them, the industrial revolution with no Irish or Italians need apply? There is plenty to teach and discuss without getting someone's personnel take on what is societies problem and oh by the way, pay me.