Just to follow up on “Trump was once a baby, and exposed to the environment and experiences that would lead him to become who he is today. He did not choose that environment or those experiences, but they fundamentally shaped who he is.” I agree but there comes a point in our adult lives where we have the ability to choose the person we …
Just to follow up on “Trump was once a baby, and exposed to the environment and experiences that would lead him to become who he is today. He did not choose that environment or those experiences, but they fundamentally shaped who he is.” I agree but there comes a point in our adult lives where we have the ability to choose the person we want to be. Every moment of every day we have a choice to react or act. It takes a great deal of self-reflection and control to shape ourselves into becoming a better person. At what point does a person become accountable for the person they chose to be?
In my view, never—not in the way you mean. Even our capacity to recognize our flaws, and to have the wherewithal to do something positive about it, is *also* the result of our genes + environment. Our ability to choose the person we want to be is also informed by our experiences, education, psychology, and temperament, as well as our current options. There is no escaping this chain.
Think about it: at what point is he given the tools to be that self-aware? At what point is he psychologically and temperamentally equipped to recognize, accept, and want those tools? Does he get a software update when he turns 25? No. He continues along the same trajectory he has been on since birth. He cannot think things that simply do not occur to him, and what occurs to him is the result of his genes and previous experiences. It's like asking you to think of the title of a movie, and you suddenly naming the title of a movie you had no idea was even a movie. Seems unlikely that you'd ever do that.
That doesn't mean there's no difference between good and bad behavior, however, and it doesn't mean that the choices we make don't matter. They do. The choices we make, and the people we decide to be, have an effect on the world and on others, and it matters whether that effect is positive or negative because it directly relates to suffering versus flourishing.
The only thing that changes by recognizing that we are products of our circumstances is that we can have compassion for people like Trump, who obviously did not get the optimal tools for being or becoming someone other than who he has become. But we are never "finished." It is possible, for most people, to be influenced and given *better* experiences, educations, and options to make better decisions about the people we will be tomorrow.
That's why this conversation still matters, and it matters that we have it rather than not have it. It matters whether or not I persuade you here, because if I do it will shift the way you behave and think about others, which will be yet another link in their "genes + environment" chain that make up who *they* are.
We are systems, but we are *open* systems—still susceptible to influence and incentive. And it matters very much what those influences and incentives are. We've seen what happens when they are bad influences and bad incentives. So those of us with the wherewithal to make better choices and be better influences have a moral duty to continue on that path for the sake of everyone.
Thank you for taking the time to reply. I don't mean to diminish your answer but you didn't need to persuade me. I thought I knew what you were going to say because I’ve had this conversation with myself often and have come to the same conclusion. But you said it way better than I ever could! These were my thoughts: If we are victims of time and space, and all those moments make us who we are, who we become is inescapable…? We could not have made any choices other than the ones we did?
But as you said, we are works in progress. Those who by random chance experienced thousands of tiny moments that led them toward being better have a moral duty to continue to make good choices. The desire to become a better person, and in turn make the world a better place for everyone, is a very heavy burden to bear.
How do we create incentives for people to become better than the worst moments that have shaped them? To not succumb to spreading suffering because they themselves suffered but despite their suffering, choose to flourish?
That's a difficult question, but the fact that you're asking it and thinking in that way means we're headed in the right direction. The ultimate goal is maximizing flourishing while minimizing needless suffering. Whatever incentives we can create to help people flourish, we should pursue them!
Absolutely LOVED this exchange. Well done you two. Please read Robert Sapolsky's book (I hope I have spelt his name right, apologies if I haven't) "Behave" in which he discusses these issues. His conclusion is that, right up to the point at which we (as Society) convict a person for a crime we must assume that (s)he had agency over their decisions. BUT, as soon as they do become so convicted, we need to switch to understand that they are indeed a product of their genes and their experience, over which they had no control. We must then use their 'correctional punishment' = my phrase - to give them an "experience" that will help them understand their error and prevent them from making a similar mistake again. In the context of Trump, I certainly hope that one of the legal cases against him now, might teach him the error of his ways before he can do any more damage to American Society. Bruce Danckwerts CHOMA, Zambia
Just to follow up on “Trump was once a baby, and exposed to the environment and experiences that would lead him to become who he is today. He did not choose that environment or those experiences, but they fundamentally shaped who he is.” I agree but there comes a point in our adult lives where we have the ability to choose the person we want to be. Every moment of every day we have a choice to react or act. It takes a great deal of self-reflection and control to shape ourselves into becoming a better person. At what point does a person become accountable for the person they chose to be?
In my view, never—not in the way you mean. Even our capacity to recognize our flaws, and to have the wherewithal to do something positive about it, is *also* the result of our genes + environment. Our ability to choose the person we want to be is also informed by our experiences, education, psychology, and temperament, as well as our current options. There is no escaping this chain.
Think about it: at what point is he given the tools to be that self-aware? At what point is he psychologically and temperamentally equipped to recognize, accept, and want those tools? Does he get a software update when he turns 25? No. He continues along the same trajectory he has been on since birth. He cannot think things that simply do not occur to him, and what occurs to him is the result of his genes and previous experiences. It's like asking you to think of the title of a movie, and you suddenly naming the title of a movie you had no idea was even a movie. Seems unlikely that you'd ever do that.
That doesn't mean there's no difference between good and bad behavior, however, and it doesn't mean that the choices we make don't matter. They do. The choices we make, and the people we decide to be, have an effect on the world and on others, and it matters whether that effect is positive or negative because it directly relates to suffering versus flourishing.
The only thing that changes by recognizing that we are products of our circumstances is that we can have compassion for people like Trump, who obviously did not get the optimal tools for being or becoming someone other than who he has become. But we are never "finished." It is possible, for most people, to be influenced and given *better* experiences, educations, and options to make better decisions about the people we will be tomorrow.
That's why this conversation still matters, and it matters that we have it rather than not have it. It matters whether or not I persuade you here, because if I do it will shift the way you behave and think about others, which will be yet another link in their "genes + environment" chain that make up who *they* are.
We are systems, but we are *open* systems—still susceptible to influence and incentive. And it matters very much what those influences and incentives are. We've seen what happens when they are bad influences and bad incentives. So those of us with the wherewithal to make better choices and be better influences have a moral duty to continue on that path for the sake of everyone.
Thank you for taking the time to reply. I don't mean to diminish your answer but you didn't need to persuade me. I thought I knew what you were going to say because I’ve had this conversation with myself often and have come to the same conclusion. But you said it way better than I ever could! These were my thoughts: If we are victims of time and space, and all those moments make us who we are, who we become is inescapable…? We could not have made any choices other than the ones we did?
But as you said, we are works in progress. Those who by random chance experienced thousands of tiny moments that led them toward being better have a moral duty to continue to make good choices. The desire to become a better person, and in turn make the world a better place for everyone, is a very heavy burden to bear.
How do we create incentives for people to become better than the worst moments that have shaped them? To not succumb to spreading suffering because they themselves suffered but despite their suffering, choose to flourish?
That's a difficult question, but the fact that you're asking it and thinking in that way means we're headed in the right direction. The ultimate goal is maximizing flourishing while minimizing needless suffering. Whatever incentives we can create to help people flourish, we should pursue them!
Thanks very much for engaging, Stephanie.
Thank YOU, Angel!!!
Absolutely LOVED this exchange. Well done you two. Please read Robert Sapolsky's book (I hope I have spelt his name right, apologies if I haven't) "Behave" in which he discusses these issues. His conclusion is that, right up to the point at which we (as Society) convict a person for a crime we must assume that (s)he had agency over their decisions. BUT, as soon as they do become so convicted, we need to switch to understand that they are indeed a product of their genes and their experience, over which they had no control. We must then use their 'correctional punishment' = my phrase - to give them an "experience" that will help them understand their error and prevent them from making a similar mistake again. In the context of Trump, I certainly hope that one of the legal cases against him now, might teach him the error of his ways before he can do any more damage to American Society. Bruce Danckwerts CHOMA, Zambia