There is no overstating the influence you've had so far on opening hearts and minds to this pernicious threat. And framing it as fundamentalism is a brilliant insight. We as a society are unintentionally preying on some of our weakest members by allowing this mass psychosis to grow and flourish. We are missing opportunities to help (mostly) young people work through mental anguish to find purpose for their lives. And we are further allowing women to be marginalized by the lie that biological sex is not fixed and differentiating.
I share the grave concern that colleges, medical school, law schools, and corporations are gripped by a fatal capture. So many people I know point to the examples you gave and say "See, the pendulum is shifting!" but I too am not convinced. We have to speak the truth, lovingly and firmly, as often as we can. Thank you for giving us words and resolve to do so.
I have a step-kid that recently became a newly licensed emergency room dr. I can assure you the medical schools are preaching what I call the “sterilize and mutilate children” doctrine. He and I don’t speak anymore because he left for college believing abortion was morally wrong. He came back thinking it was ok to abort a baby up to birth if the woman feels like it.
Wow - that's upsetting. My daughter is considering med school (something that a decade ago I would have been thrilled with) but I admit I am truly worried about what they teach, and their ability to shroud it in a blanket of misinterpreted "science." Right now, my daughter and I see eye-to-eye on abortion, and I make sure we have open dialogue about all of these issues in the hopes that she remember there is not a single source of information.
Today I saw a video of a protest in Maryland in which a LGBTQ+ activist/sympathizer/ally screamed repeatedly into a megaphone “no religion in school!” And yes, the very same ideas you elaborate on here crossed my mind. What this protester couldn’t see is that--in this specific case--it is clear that it is *not* the Maryland Muslim parents who want their religion taught in public schools. Rather, the protest deals with a different secular religion that has been able to disguise itself in order to infiltrate the public school curriculum. Likewise, this religion has been able to duplicitously proselytize by manipulating people’s good intentions, piggybacking on gay rights and setting up false dichotomies. Who is standing up for our and our children’s freedom from this specific religion?
Yes, yes, yes. I too am VERY afraid that today's middle- and high-schoolers will soon be judges, lawyers, professors, legislators . . . Thank you for this piece, and most especially for your book. Talk about brave!!
Very well written. I appreciate your words. I want to add another dimension that rarely is brought up in the discussion about LBGTQ+ advocacy in our schools. Our ed system has limited resources, so all the time, energy and money spent on on these efforts comes at the expense of other things - like teaching K-12 students how to read, write and do math. Before the pandemic America's education system lagged behind most other developed nations, with literacy and math skills near the bottom of the rankings. Since the pandemic things have grown worse and our children's skills have plummeted to alarmingly low levels. This trend should frighten all Americans because this generation will lack the skills to thrive in an information economy. Our school systems are teaching them the skills to be inoffensive Wal-mart greeters and nothing more. The majority of our Children are losing out in life so our schools can engage in virtue signaling about a minority.
There may be a swing of the pendulum because more parents will grow concerned that our under-performing schools are shifting focus from teaching students to indoctrinating them. I expect to see anti-woke private schools popping up to provide alternatives - if we enact voucher systems, then maybe simple economics will stop schools from this insanity.
Attempts to ban "Irreversible Damage" began long before Ron DeSantis forfeited his special pass to Disney World. Abigail is a great writer , and does it with guts and gusto. I would love to see a " bipartisan" book club read her book and have her attend for a "spirited" Q&A.
Well, sure. But funny thing, too--all this nonsense has made me feel a little uncomfortable about my cultural not only acceptance of circumcision, but the distaste I feel for uncircumcised penises. How shall I rationalize my feeling that male circumcision as part of the essential rites of Judaism and Islam is normal, with all of that back-up data supporting the idea that it's healthier and cleaner, but reject FGM and any other mutilations of the natural genitals of boys and girls?
Indeed, indeed--every religion/cult has its foundational beliefs that can't be violated without rage and rejection from the faithful. That slippery slope thing, we find it everywhere.
And that suggestion you'd been given to speak in Jerusalem rather than Tel Aviv? Jerusalem as a normal place? Where abuse verbal and physical is hurled at Sabbath-breakers and little frum girls not sufficiently shrouded in garments of modesty as decreed by the most ultra ultra of cultists?
If we're gonna be frank, let's go all the way, please.
It is a good point, but my view is FGM can't be compared to circumcision. FGM is perpetrated not on babies, but young women who fully experience fear in anticipation of what is going on, appears to be done by non medical people using sometimes blunt tools like can lids or broken glass thus creating injuries beyond the intent of the procedure, and infection. And the aim isn't hygiene but to remove any pleasure available in the "act" for women since they cut through the nerves of the cl*to*ris which must be good fun to experience. So barbaric ideology vs. hygiene frames my thoughts on it.
In Muslim countries male circumcision is sometimes performed on boys as old as ten or so, and they sure experience a heck of a lot of fear in anticipation--at least those who haven't been tricked into thinking something else was going to happen until the moment something else didn't.
And Jews and Muslims don't circumcise boys for health reasons but as a religious obligation without which the child isn't a full member of the faith community.
My point is that the original sin opens the door for every succeeding one.
MGM is still a barbaric, trauma-inducing violation of an individual’s bodily integrity. What does being a baby got to do with it? I should think that puts them among the most vulnerable, helpless and innocent of victims needing protection from others.
I would think the terror of someone who is sentient, observes what is going to happen and has heard the screams of others would be in their minds forever. Do you remember what happened to you as a baby? I don't, but I see your point.
Glad you see my point. I'll just add. Babies are sentient in that they perceive physical sensation, can experience pain, physically and emotionally. Neither conscious awareness of what is happening nor memory of the event are the sole determiners of whether trauma has occurred (though they may make it worse). And just because the long-term effects are little known because there can be no reporting by the victims doesn't mean there are no effects. However, besides the such 'consequentialist' objections, there is the purely moral point. The physical abuse/mutilation of an innocent human being no matter the age is universally condemned as morally wrong, no? Except in this case, apparently, due to 'custom' and various made-up rationalizations. Not different from FGM, other than the cultures doing the rationalizing.
One can similarly view all "narrow" ideologies, whilch even when starting out fine, are taken over by obsessive activist groups fueled by leaders pushing their private agendas.
Well, to me this piece reads like a rally for one aspect of the argument. I am not on board with language of the left or the language of the right. That said, I am sure many on either side are caught up in being "right" in their beliefs and making the other side "wrong" thus they are horrible, terrible and awful. Now, that said I am glad there are people writing books and articles that represent the views Abigail write about. I just did not like the way this one is written. I prefer articles written like this one myself for example: https://andrewsullivan.substack.com/p/the-queers-versus-the-homosexuals-cfd?utm_source=activity_item
I've seen the product of this 'rainbow acceptance' emerging into the professional world ... "don't punch down" capitalists who take their young kids to drag reads at the library, talk very posititively, are equipped with talking points to shut down contrary opinions and never deviate and will not countenance consideration of anything except their received narrative. They seem frail and without beliefs or a foundation we'd recognize. Unrecognizable to what I've seen in business over the last 40 years. I just don't know anymore. Maybe we are the dinosaurs.
MS. Shrier - Thank you for your courage and your nuanced approach to this issue... It is clearly a religion. I thought we were done with new religions. Hitch must be turning in his grave...
Yes, he would. But I think his position suffered the fatal flaw of not recognizing, or at least not accepting, the natural and near universal religious impulse in the human being. Get rid of one religion and another pops up to replace it. Why? Because we can't help but seek some form of transcendence, and gender ideology offers a very twisted version of that. Hitch's battle is endless.
There is no overstating the influence you've had so far on opening hearts and minds to this pernicious threat. And framing it as fundamentalism is a brilliant insight. We as a society are unintentionally preying on some of our weakest members by allowing this mass psychosis to grow and flourish. We are missing opportunities to help (mostly) young people work through mental anguish to find purpose for their lives. And we are further allowing women to be marginalized by the lie that biological sex is not fixed and differentiating.
I share the grave concern that colleges, medical school, law schools, and corporations are gripped by a fatal capture. So many people I know point to the examples you gave and say "See, the pendulum is shifting!" but I too am not convinced. We have to speak the truth, lovingly and firmly, as often as we can. Thank you for giving us words and resolve to do so.
I have a step-kid that recently became a newly licensed emergency room dr. I can assure you the medical schools are preaching what I call the “sterilize and mutilate children” doctrine. He and I don’t speak anymore because he left for college believing abortion was morally wrong. He came back thinking it was ok to abort a baby up to birth if the woman feels like it.
Wow - that's upsetting. My daughter is considering med school (something that a decade ago I would have been thrilled with) but I admit I am truly worried about what they teach, and their ability to shroud it in a blanket of misinterpreted "science." Right now, my daughter and I see eye-to-eye on abortion, and I make sure we have open dialogue about all of these issues in the hopes that she remember there is not a single source of information.
Today I saw a video of a protest in Maryland in which a LGBTQ+ activist/sympathizer/ally screamed repeatedly into a megaphone “no religion in school!” And yes, the very same ideas you elaborate on here crossed my mind. What this protester couldn’t see is that--in this specific case--it is clear that it is *not* the Maryland Muslim parents who want their religion taught in public schools. Rather, the protest deals with a different secular religion that has been able to disguise itself in order to infiltrate the public school curriculum. Likewise, this religion has been able to duplicitously proselytize by manipulating people’s good intentions, piggybacking on gay rights and setting up false dichotomies. Who is standing up for our and our children’s freedom from this specific religion?
It is a religion that is extremely successful at insinuating itself into institutions precisely because it pretends not to be a religion.
Incredibly well said. I would add another extremely important tenet of this religion: original sin, aka being cis or especially being male.
Trying to do my part, I got my library to order your book (DCPL). Thank you!
Yes, yes, yes. I too am VERY afraid that today's middle- and high-schoolers will soon be judges, lawyers, professors, legislators . . . Thank you for this piece, and most especially for your book. Talk about brave!!
God bless Abigail Shrier
Very well written. I appreciate your words. I want to add another dimension that rarely is brought up in the discussion about LBGTQ+ advocacy in our schools. Our ed system has limited resources, so all the time, energy and money spent on on these efforts comes at the expense of other things - like teaching K-12 students how to read, write and do math. Before the pandemic America's education system lagged behind most other developed nations, with literacy and math skills near the bottom of the rankings. Since the pandemic things have grown worse and our children's skills have plummeted to alarmingly low levels. This trend should frighten all Americans because this generation will lack the skills to thrive in an information economy. Our school systems are teaching them the skills to be inoffensive Wal-mart greeters and nothing more. The majority of our Children are losing out in life so our schools can engage in virtue signaling about a minority.
There may be a swing of the pendulum because more parents will grow concerned that our under-performing schools are shifting focus from teaching students to indoctrinating them. I expect to see anti-woke private schools popping up to provide alternatives - if we enact voucher systems, then maybe simple economics will stop schools from this insanity.
Thank you for continued work in this arena. I bought your book!
Attempts to ban "Irreversible Damage" began long before Ron DeSantis forfeited his special pass to Disney World. Abigail is a great writer , and does it with guts and gusto. I would love to see a " bipartisan" book club read her book and have her attend for a "spirited" Q&A.
Well, sure. But funny thing, too--all this nonsense has made me feel a little uncomfortable about my cultural not only acceptance of circumcision, but the distaste I feel for uncircumcised penises. How shall I rationalize my feeling that male circumcision as part of the essential rites of Judaism and Islam is normal, with all of that back-up data supporting the idea that it's healthier and cleaner, but reject FGM and any other mutilations of the natural genitals of boys and girls?
Indeed, indeed--every religion/cult has its foundational beliefs that can't be violated without rage and rejection from the faithful. That slippery slope thing, we find it everywhere.
And that suggestion you'd been given to speak in Jerusalem rather than Tel Aviv? Jerusalem as a normal place? Where abuse verbal and physical is hurled at Sabbath-breakers and little frum girls not sufficiently shrouded in garments of modesty as decreed by the most ultra ultra of cultists?
If we're gonna be frank, let's go all the way, please.
It is a good point, but my view is FGM can't be compared to circumcision. FGM is perpetrated not on babies, but young women who fully experience fear in anticipation of what is going on, appears to be done by non medical people using sometimes blunt tools like can lids or broken glass thus creating injuries beyond the intent of the procedure, and infection. And the aim isn't hygiene but to remove any pleasure available in the "act" for women since they cut through the nerves of the cl*to*ris which must be good fun to experience. So barbaric ideology vs. hygiene frames my thoughts on it.
In Muslim countries male circumcision is sometimes performed on boys as old as ten or so, and they sure experience a heck of a lot of fear in anticipation--at least those who haven't been tricked into thinking something else was going to happen until the moment something else didn't.
And Jews and Muslims don't circumcise boys for health reasons but as a religious obligation without which the child isn't a full member of the faith community.
My point is that the original sin opens the door for every succeeding one.
Didnt know that, all so awful. Thanks - I agree on the original sin point
MGM is still a barbaric, trauma-inducing violation of an individual’s bodily integrity. What does being a baby got to do with it? I should think that puts them among the most vulnerable, helpless and innocent of victims needing protection from others.
I would think the terror of someone who is sentient, observes what is going to happen and has heard the screams of others would be in their minds forever. Do you remember what happened to you as a baby? I don't, but I see your point.
Glad you see my point. I'll just add. Babies are sentient in that they perceive physical sensation, can experience pain, physically and emotionally. Neither conscious awareness of what is happening nor memory of the event are the sole determiners of whether trauma has occurred (though they may make it worse). And just because the long-term effects are little known because there can be no reporting by the victims doesn't mean there are no effects. However, besides the such 'consequentialist' objections, there is the purely moral point. The physical abuse/mutilation of an innocent human being no matter the age is universally condemned as morally wrong, no? Except in this case, apparently, due to 'custom' and various made-up rationalizations. Not different from FGM, other than the cultures doing the rationalizing.
Except that assuming you have access to a modern shower or even just a sink and soap and the ability to wash yourself, an uncircumcised penis requires incrementally more work but there are no hygienic advantages https://www.healthymale.org.au/news/circumcised-vs-uncircumcised-whats-difference
One can similarly view all "narrow" ideologies, whilch even when starting out fine, are taken over by obsessive activist groups fueled by leaders pushing their private agendas.
Well, to me this piece reads like a rally for one aspect of the argument. I am not on board with language of the left or the language of the right. That said, I am sure many on either side are caught up in being "right" in their beliefs and making the other side "wrong" thus they are horrible, terrible and awful. Now, that said I am glad there are people writing books and articles that represent the views Abigail write about. I just did not like the way this one is written. I prefer articles written like this one myself for example: https://andrewsullivan.substack.com/p/the-queers-versus-the-homosexuals-cfd?utm_source=activity_item
Abigail I am so grateful for your courage and smarts. Thank you for all you do.
I've seen the product of this 'rainbow acceptance' emerging into the professional world ... "don't punch down" capitalists who take their young kids to drag reads at the library, talk very posititively, are equipped with talking points to shut down contrary opinions and never deviate and will not countenance consideration of anything except their received narrative. They seem frail and without beliefs or a foundation we'd recognize. Unrecognizable to what I've seen in business over the last 40 years. I just don't know anymore. Maybe we are the dinosaurs.
MS. Shrier - Thank you for your courage and your nuanced approach to this issue... It is clearly a religion. I thought we were done with new religions. Hitch must be turning in his grave...
Yes, he would. But I think his position suffered the fatal flaw of not recognizing, or at least not accepting, the natural and near universal religious impulse in the human being. Get rid of one religion and another pops up to replace it. Why? Because we can't help but seek some form of transcendence, and gender ideology offers a very twisted version of that. Hitch's battle is endless.